Great Women In Fraud

Episode 8 Jackie Garrick-Whistleblowers of America

November 16, 2020 Kelly Paxton, CFE Season 1 Episode 8
Great Women In Fraud
Episode 8 Jackie Garrick-Whistleblowers of America
Great Women In Fraud
Episode 8 Jackie Garrick-Whistleblowers of America
Nov 16, 2020 Season 1 Episode 8
Kelly Paxton, CFE

As a fraud professional you will eventually, if you have not already, have a whistleblower case.  Jackie Garrick's experience will change the way you see whistleblowers. Her work as a social worker helping prevent suicides in the military led her down a path that she never saw coming.  She only did what she thought was necessary and it changed her life.  Her story is inspiring yet chilling.  This is a must listen because at some point in your career you may face a decision to become a whistleblower.  
What is even more inspiring than listening to Jackie is the incredible resources and guidance she provides to the whistleblower community.  
Please reach out to Jackie on LinkedIn.
Her Whistleblowers of America website:

Show Notes Transcript

As a fraud professional you will eventually, if you have not already, have a whistleblower case.  Jackie Garrick's experience will change the way you see whistleblowers. Her work as a social worker helping prevent suicides in the military led her down a path that she never saw coming.  She only did what she thought was necessary and it changed her life.  Her story is inspiring yet chilling.  This is a must listen because at some point in your career you may face a decision to become a whistleblower.  
What is even more inspiring than listening to Jackie is the incredible resources and guidance she provides to the whistleblower community.  
Please reach out to Jackie on LinkedIn.
Her Whistleblowers of America website:

Links to Jackie and Whistleblowers of America:
Whistleblowers of America Resources:
Whistleblowers of America Education:

00:00:22.350 --> 00:00:35.130
Kelly Paxton: We are here today with Jackie Garrick and you're going to hear just the most incredible story that can happen to anyone. Jackie, Garrick is

She's a whistleblower, and I'm going to let you. I'm going to let Jackie. Tell her background and where she what she's doing currently

But this is going to be an episode that you really, really are going to not only learn a ton from from but you are going to

00:00:53.490 --> 00:01:11.520
Kelly Paxton: Understand how hard it is to be a whistleblower, but how to do it in a better way for you, yourself, your family and your life going forward. So Jackie. Thank you so so much, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background, what you're doing. Currently, and how you got there.

00:01:12.750 --> 00:01:14.850
Jacqueline Garrick: Or so that's that's a big question.

So thank you for having me on your, your podcast, I'm really excited about.

The role women in fraud is playing and I got very involved in in this area quite by accident. I'm, I'm a former Army Social Work officer who has spent most of my career actually working with combat veterans. So PTSD suicide prevention, substance abuse, those were my areas of interest. That was my specialty.

And I was doing that at the at the Pentagon. I stood up the Defense suicide prevention office in 2011 and when we had a new daddy come in a Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense.

Come into the Pentagon and she started talking about contracts where she had been a vice president, her husband has business developments and relationships with the same company. And I thought, well, this is, this should be something you recuse yourself from

And I raised those issues, the environment, got more and more hostile questioning my my competence my abilities, keeping in mind.I'm the only one that was in the circles, having these meetings that had the mental health background so the
So I made the disclosure about some of the wrongdoing in 2014 and then by 2015

I was being replaced as the director of the Defense suicide prevention office with somebody that in emails are issues is described as her mentee.

And so they had this relationship that then allowed them to work closely together and some of the contracts. After that, things that I had created

By the summer of 2015 were being cancelled money was being moved authorities were being moved. And so I got very involved in whistleblowing one

Because of what I saw happen to the Defense suicide prevention program monies, but also because I felt like what they had done to me was to move me out of the way so that they could do what they wanted to do with the with the money.

I'm very grateful that it took five years, but I'm grateful for the Merit System Protection Board judge who this year.

Agreed that the case that I presented was in fact related to whistleblower retaliation and the harm that it caused me and I was able to do that. And it was some

Is actually very cathartic because I was able actually to get on a foil not discovery but on a foil get emails that showed some of the things they were saying about me to each other and some of the exceptions. They had to get

 Like a security clearance waiver. So they did all this manipulating to move me out of the position and move the other person into the position so that then

They could change how things were operating. So that's why I got involved in whistleblowing

again quite by accident. I never thought of myself as a whistleblower. I thought I was doing all the right things. I was following the Federal Acquisition Regulation, the far

And and then just saw all of the wrongdoing from so many other people so many other perspectives. Other people were dealing with

The same feelings of harm retaliation trying to describe what it felt like to be bullied intimidated discredited. Some of those same things.

 And to me, that was very, very reminiscent of what I saw with combat veterans. So a combat environment and a hostile work environment began to look an awful lot alike to me. And that's when we created whistleblowers of America.

And 2017 and we're now closing in on about 600 connections with people. We're all volunteers. So sometimes it takes a little bit for us to connect back up, but it's it's been a journey.

00:05:43.710 --> 00:05:56.910
Kelly Paxton: Knowing no one ever thinks that they're going to become a whistleblower. I don't think just kind of like most people, I don't think, unless you're a sociopath think they're, you know, a psychopath. You think you're going to become a criminal. But life happens

And you know, you saw something that clearly you wanted the best product for. I mean, this is so important for military veterans suicide prevention. I mean, oh my gosh, I just like how how people could take from a program like that is horrific, in my opinion, absolutely horrific.

00:06:23.550 --> 00:06:31.470
Jacqueline Garrick: So that that was a big part of the my disclosures were was about the money and the contracts and
Um, and, you know, I know you've got some of your folks listening are probably experts and looking at budgets and contracts and

Understand the difference between when money is obligated when it is executed. But if you really sat down and took the time to look at what happened between 20 1516 1718 where we are today, you'll see that money was either mismanaged misspent Miss directed

And accounted for. So this has been some of my ongoing issue outside of my own personal issues with my employment.

00:07:11.520 --> 00:07:19.740
Jacqueline Garrick: Is that I think the suicide rate and we we talked about the suicide rate, the VA Veterans Affairs and Department of Defense.
Are releasing high high suicide numbers yet they're touting that they've got these awareness campaigns and taking this public health approach, but that doesn't explain, then if you're spending all of this money and Congress's allocating it

 Why is the suicide rate still as high. And I think part of that answer, I'm in suicides complex and it's a complicated answer.

 But part of that is because we haven't really looked at here are the risk factors. Here are the problems.

Here's what we're addressing and we just had a recent the VA published a prevents report about a public health approach.

 Well, what about you know the the number of staff are hiring where they're shortages. Where do we need to really beef up staff were don't we have bad days of care.

How are we accounting for that. So it's those kinds of issues that I think are the first part of this is understanding the disclosure and that element.

That then leads to part the other part, which is the retaliation and the trauma and

And the rest, so it's it's a two part process. And I think that's an important thing for people to understand is first you have to understand the wrongdoing.

Then you have to understand the the judicial proceedings that adjudicate that and when I got started I certainly did not. I made lots of mistakes.

00:08:44.250 --> 00:08:49.530
Kelly Paxton: Well, so now you just recently published a paper. Do you want to talk about the paper.

That whistleblower retaliation checklist because is is you know the audience out there. We work in fraud and we see bad stuff.

A lot of the times, and sometimes I think we think it protects us because we know where the quote bodies are buried, but it doesn't and

As someone working in fraud or an audit you are going to see how the sausage is made, and you need to realize that retaliation could happen to you. So why don't we talk about the whistleblower retaliation checklist.

00:09:25.020 --> 00:09:40.290
Jacqueline Garrick: Sure. So, um, one of the things I did and and i think auditors will relate to this is as a social worker. I'm familiar with some of the inventories, we use to diagnose and treat

The conditions that are in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, that the American Psychiatric Association publishes the DSM five for short.

And so the way we go about making those diagnoses is we use inventories and scales.

Well, when I was trying to figure out is there an inventory or scale that helps document whistleblower retaliation. I couldn't really find one.

And I was hearing all of these terms and people were talking in terms of things like gaslighting marginalizing mobbing shunning devaluing career blocking

00:10:23.250 --> 00:10:30.000
Jacqueline Garrick: are sometimes referred to as blackballing and the, the emotional and physical violence. I mean, I think.

00:10:37.470 --> 00:10:49.950
Jacqueline Garrick: So some of these toxic tactics of retaliation. I felt we needed to document. So I created this checklist with nine domains and about 75 indicators.

And we tested that at this point we ran a study on our whistleblowers of America website and with the help of Dr. Martina Buck who say research scientist by background.

Or more so than mine. She was able to help me do some data analytics, so that we can look at if you're subject to these tactics, then

Your likelihood for harm is evident and we can demonstrate like the connection between gaslighting which can lead to a lot of ruminating and intrusive thoughts and nightmares.

That, that becomes then a symptom for criteria you know criteria symptoms for PTSD. So when you start to draw those correlations. You can see where this toxic work environment.

Causes this workplace traumatic stress which can then result in a diagnosis of PTSD anxiety disorder, depression, substance abuse, suicidal ideation.

All of that then starts to fit in to this picture of how this environment causes this harm. And so I think that becomes really important

To understand that correlation, because I think that as your and I would love for people who were doing audits.

That when there is retaliation and the case is that they have a tool to really document. How have people been retaliated against and and how do you then.

00:12:20.400 --> 00:12:36.810
Jacqueline Garrick: Deal with and prove the retaliation, because that you know as you know i mean that's nebulous. If I say, Well, I've been bullied and harassed. Well, what does that mean, you know, okay, so you have a mean boss, what does it really mean to be harassed or bullied at work.

00:12:38.550 --> 00:12:50.580
Kelly Paxton: This this hits so close to home and I truly wish I had known you in 2016 because it would have done me a world of good. We've talked about a little bit. I was retaliated against and the terms you use

They deeply, deeply affect a person.

Personally, professionally and the other sort of ironic thing is I give out

Often a book on Friday fraudsters for the quiz and my one of my favorite books to give out is the Checklist Manifesto, by it'll go on day

And because I love checklists and like didn't have a whistleblower retaliation checklist. Oh my god. This is genius. I mean it is

It is absolutely genius and I think it can also be proactive. So if you're a if you're going to say a good boss.

00:13:30.540 --> 00:13:46.350
Kelly Paxton: And you have allegations of someone doing this, you can look at this list. And you can say, oh my gosh, yes. That manager is doing this. So I don't think it's just for I think it could be for good management to us.

00:13:47.520 --> 00:13:52.710
Jacqueline Garrick: Now, that's a really good point because we have looked at something I call the workplace promise.

00:13:53.670 --> 00:14:01.740
Jacqueline Garrick: When I was doing suicide prevention work i i got to collaborate with the World Health Organization on a couple of projects. We did a

Global imperative on suicide and then we came back and did a toolkit on suicide.

00:14:06.600 --> 00:14:16.170
Jacqueline Garrick: So I've looked at some of the things, the World Health Organization has put together on hostile work environments social injustice disparities.

And in that I thought we need to pivot. I mean, because most people need. They need to feel that sense of resilience and restorative justice.

00:14:26.910 --> 00:14:39.990
Jacqueline Garrick: And we need to create these environments that are that are sound that do foster right doing, you should want to hire whistleblowers, you should want people in your organization.

That raised their hands and say, hey, I don't think the emperor has no clothes. We need those people, because then we make a better product and

You know, there, there are whistleblowers who very well could be wrong about the their perceptions. Right.

But having an honest dialogue about that can only make the process better and make the workplace better. So that's where we

We thought about this in terms of a workplace promise, like, what, what should be your

Your guarantee that this is the environment you work for. And this is the kind of

Neighbor, you are as a government you know whether you're a government agency, a big corporation, a small nonprofit. You're a neighbor, you have customers beneficiaries.

 You have the people who work in the building next door, he might not think that you have anything to do with but one of my

00:15:32.700 --> 00:15:43.320
Jacqueline Garrick: favorite quotes comes from the chairman of the World Bank, who says if we don't, if we don't look at mental health issues, we won't have social justice and we have these

These imbalances, so I i think that we have to really think about not just the the target population. We're trying to help, but also the environment we're creating internally and externally and that that comes back in, you know, tenfold. I think

00:16:05.310 --> 00:16:05.580
Kelly Paxton: Oh,

 The younger generation, you know, whether you call it Gen Y or Gen Z and they don't want to work for a corporation that they think is evil.

And they're very clear because they also know they're going to work for a lot of corporations in their lifetime.

So if you're going to have the choice between someone who treats you well and pays you a little bit less versus someone who

You know, treat you poorly and pays you more. It all goes to tone at the top and culture, and culture is, you know, it's hard to measure. But, you know, a good culture when you see it.

00:16:40.860 --> 00:16:53.430
Jacqueline Garrick: Yeah, so that's, I mean part of why we created the checklist was because you you need to be able to understand when an environment is toxic. And we talked a lot about that around the military, you know, a toxic command and climb that

00:16:54.330 --> 00:17:03.390
Jacqueline Garrick: How do you measure diversity inclusion. How do you measure that, kind of, you know, what is good leadership. What makes what makes somebody

00:17:04.860 --> 00:17:07.260
Jacqueline Garrick: A role model a mentor.

00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:22.290
Jacqueline Garrick: Those are the things I think we want to facilitate as opposed to stifle. And so that's where I think the whistleblower can really be a good employee. If you mentor them right train them right

00:17:23.580 --> 00:17:32.610
Jacqueline Garrick: You know, take that energy. Take that interest in compliance and and really pivot with it to something positive.

00:17:33.150 --> 00:17:45.090
Jacqueline Garrick: As opposed to it being so adversarial because when as soon as it becomes adversarial it becomes harmful and toxic, not just to the one individual going through the case but to everybody else around you.

00:17:46.290 --> 00:17:53.790
Jacqueline Garrick: You know, one of the things I just did with the whistleblower retaliation checklist was in this past year I used it on

00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:59.190
Jacqueline Garrick: For a law firm hired me to do evaluations on for their clients.

00:18:00.060 --> 00:18:12.540
Jacqueline Garrick: Those four clients. We're going up against major corporation with the Department of Energy contract those clients just 150 $8 million in or no award because they were able to prove

00:18:13.080 --> 00:18:18.570
Jacqueline Garrick: That retaliation to place that there were in fact these violations of compliance.

00:18:19.020 --> 00:18:31.650
Jacqueline Garrick: And they they actually save the government, a lot of money they've they've cooked the money for the government, mostly. Then, of course, they get their 10 to 30% right under a False Claims Act, but the company settled.

00:18:33.180 --> 00:18:41.700
Jacqueline Garrick: If they had just listened to these folks in the first place, there wouldn't be all this harm the government when they've gotten involved.

00:18:42.180 --> 00:18:55.470
Jacqueline Garrick: The other workers co workers, everybody else who work for this corporation. I mean, everybody knows when there's an investigation going on and all these problems are going on. It's never a secret in it, it impacts the entire workforce and you have productivity issues absentees shoes. So there's a lot to be gained here by by doing it right in the first place.

00:19:06.660 --> 00:19:16.890
Kelly Paxton: Oh, I mean, honestly, I think this is like genius. I really think it's genius, because I'm like I said I love checklist and you would have like
Again, you can have a boss who's just like, Well, I don't really quite see it, but then you educate them about how to be able to see it and

00:19:29.730 --> 00:19:39.690
Kelly Paxton: I really think long term, you're going to put out such a better product or, you know, you're going to have that better workplace. And again, you should want to hire whistleblowers.

I truly believe no one really wants to become a whistleblower, they just like in and we don't ever see it happening.

Like you do it because you want to fix the system. But, you know, Warren Buffett has a great quote that you know he takes The alert line very seriously. He goes, yeah, a lot of it is garbage. But, I mean, it's the gems you get in there. Wells Fargo perfect example. I mean, you know, every Wells Fargo employee that did the alert line and was terminated should go through this whistleblower. I mean yeah 

00:20:22.800 --> 00:20:31.530
Kelly Paxton: I see a lot of really good consulting for you. Going forward, because I think that this is just this is cutting edge, it's it's really, it's to be able

As I said, both sides that you know the employer side and the retaliated employee side they both can understand better the process.

00:20:42.270 --> 00:20:46.230
Jacqueline Garrick: You know, and, and I appreciate that. I appreciate all the compliments to um

I think this was for me this was born out of a necessity to try to understand what was happening because you're right i mean i like i said i i thought i was doing

00:20:56.250 --> 00:21:07.800
Jacqueline Garrick: What the far required me to do. I never thought about it in for two seconds. As I was being a whistleblower I until I went to HR and I said, Look, I don't understand what's happening here.

00:21:08.310 --> 00:21:18.900
Jacqueline Garrick: And she said, Oh, you need to file a PPP, I was like what the heck puts BBB I didn't know what she was even talking about. And she said, don't worry.

00:21:19.290 --> 00:21:23.670
Jacqueline Garrick: I'm gonna, I'm going to give you links to websites and you're just going to fill it out.

00:21:24.330 --> 00:21:31.980
Jacqueline Garrick: And and I admit I want to end it was emotional for me. I think we're going. I mean, there was all this going wrong. I was being

00:21:32.370 --> 00:21:44.520
Jacqueline Garrick: Replaced at my job. The job I created. So it was this emotionally turmoil time and then all of a sudden, I've got somebody in HR saying, oh, this is a prohibited personnel practice.

00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:52.410
Jacqueline Garrick: And you need to report this. And I, and I thought, well, I thought you were the person I should be reporting it to now you're telling me there's even more to report.

00:21:53.010 --> 00:22:06.750
Jacqueline Garrick: So it was it was an eye opening experience. And, you know, like I said, if I if I knew. Now what if I knew then what I know now, I might have done things a whole lot differently. And I remember

00:22:25.290 --> 00:22:39.210
Jacqueline Garrick: I should have been assistant that he invested the contracting the conflicts of interest and the appearance of impartiality, he should have. I should have insisted that the big investigate those things. Instead, he told me that

00:22:40.050 --> 00:22:53.190
Jacqueline Garrick: I should be ready to be in for a penny be, in for a pound. I should worry about myself. I should go to the USA and I took his advice as sound. You know, I didn't think he would misguide me

00:22:53.610 --> 00:23:01.530
Jacqueline Garrick: And and now I think back. Well, if he would have investigated that right from the get go. We might be in a very different place.

00:23:17.490 --> 00:23:33.780
Jacqueline Garrick: We're not going to open a case. So twice the do do it sent me away. Never investigated, anything that I was trying to report so it wasn't until I went to the VA O RG the Department of Veterans Affairs had

00:23:35.220 --> 00:23:42.300
Jacqueline Garrick: some skin in this game because they did have some of the contracts, but I wasn't the contracting officer and over there. I had no authority.

00:23:42.690 --> 00:23:55.650
Jacqueline Garrick: So they they weren't able to substantiate my case because he told me, you should have what you should have done is you should have awarded the contract even though you thought it was wrong to do it.

00:23:56.190 --> 00:24:06.330
Jacqueline Garrick: And then reported the bullying and the intimidation and we would have been able to press criminal charges for fraud with fraudulent intent.

00:24:07.260 --> 00:24:16.950
Jacqueline Garrick: And I thought, well, so I had to do something I thought was wrong to get you to do something right and it just seemed like such a catch 22

00:24:17.550 --> 00:24:28.590
Jacqueline Garrick: And and now. So when I, when I talk to people. Now I'm always really clear like. So what's your evidence. And what's your evidence versus an opinion.

00:24:29.070 --> 00:24:45.000
Jacqueline Garrick: versus, you know, just a mean boss versus somebody who's really doing something potentially corrupt, so it's it's been a world when a lessons learned and the more I talked to different whistleblowers inside the government outside the government, private sector.

00:24:46.050 --> 00:24:56.670
Jacqueline Garrick: We are able to share some of these lessons and help each other with our cases and and i think that's been a real driving purpose for me right now with whistleblowers of America.

00:24:57.180 --> 00:25:05.370
Jacqueline Garrick: Is just connecting with other people willing to volunteer and share their stories like you're doing today. And so grateful that there is this network out there.

00:25:06.300 --> 00:25:15.510
Jacqueline Garrick: That there are these compliance officers out there that there are people who care about identifying fraud, waste, and abuse in the same way. So,

00:25:19.320 --> 00:25:27.240
Jacqueline Garrick: Very grateful for the for the world that's around us and that can do these kinds of things because we need it. We need that support we need that lift.

00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:44.490
Kelly Paxton: Yeah, and you know, I'm with these type of cases there's no there's no reason to reinvent the wheel every single time. And there, there is a time factor, a lot of these cases, you have, you know, the limitations of time to be able to file something

00:25:47.460 --> 00:25:54.900
Kelly Paxton: This whistleblowers of America is genius. Also, in that there is a group out there that you can talk to and you can feel comfortable about and I'm going to say there's no hidden agenda. Whereas, sometimes you're going to go to a lawyer and the lawyer is going to get

00:26:16.890 --> 00:26:30.120
Kelly Paxton: You're prepared to go through and you know in for a penny, in for a pound versus a, you know, legal counsel which sees it as, you know, okay, you're I've got a case and

00:26:30.600 --> 00:26:37.950
Kelly Paxton: I think the peer to peer is so incredibly important and that's why I'm doing great women and fraud is to get peers, talking to each other.

00:26:39.720 --> 00:26:47.430
Jacqueline Garrick: No, that's, to me, that's amazing to me because that is what I think we need and and we are seeing more with women become whistleblowers.

00:26:48.030 --> 00:26:55.980
Jacqueline Garrick: They're reporting the sexual harassment and assault in the workplace, the reporting the gender discrimination, those in the number

00:26:56.400 --> 00:27:06.480
Jacqueline Garrick: Of itself isn't is to me so important and so powerful. One of the things we would, you know, if ever we had funding because right now we do this with a lot of volunteers.

00:27:07.620 --> 00:27:12.780
Jacqueline Garrick: Is to do more studies on whistleblowers and so propensity to become a whistleblower

00:27:13.770 --> 00:27:27.090
Jacqueline Garrick: Looking at the things that push people to make that choice between being a whistleblower maybe raise a caution flag back away from it be a bystander be complicit. I mean, we take on these different roles.

Why, and I do see the role of women in this space changing as more women enter leadership perspectives. They bring those
values and ideals and ethics women problem solve a little differently. For the most part, so we can we see that

00:27:47.490 --> 00:27:58.560
Jacqueline Garrick: The role of women in ethics and compliance definitely changing I hear from a lot more women, then I would have thought because they are in these senior positions.

00:27:59.010 --> 00:28:14.040
Jacqueline Garrick: As well as another group that I hear from a lot of our veterans themselves who I think we have this notion his military that you have this obligation to duty mine cost people lives. You have to be honorable, you have to be respectful. There are just these

Ethics that are instilled in the military. And each of those services have their, you know, their ethics standards. So the ethos of this

00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:38.580
Jacqueline Garrick: You know the soldiers creed. And those things are important to the military. So I feel like I'm seeing more and more

00:28:39.090 --> 00:28:48.480
Jacqueline Garrick: And we're learning to ask more. Are you a veteran, I was just talking to a whistleblower in the UK. And it occurred to me to say to him, hey, are you a veteran and he was like

00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:24.840
Jacqueline Garrick: Didn't form his thinking about being a whistleblower. So I think we need to understand that those some those roles and background as well. When we think about some of this. And then think about how we incorporate that into the workplace and that environment moving forward.

00:29:26.550 --> 00:29:32.910
Kelly Paxton: So you know the the cheesy saying have you get lemonade out of lemons and

00:29:34.500 --> 00:29:35.970
Kelly Paxton: What, what is your lemonade.

00:29:38.310 --> 00:29:52.050
Jacqueline Garrick: So this is not the career path I would have chosen for myself. You know, I wanted to finish my career as the director for the Defense suicide prevention office. I wanted to finish my 20 years reach my age retire.
 All in due course. But here we are.

00:29:58.020 --> 00:30:04.380
Jacqueline Garrick: And I do feel very blessed that I've gotten to meet so many amazing people like Kelly.

00:30:04.860 --> 00:30:16.200
Jacqueline Garrick: And get to have these kinds of conversations that we were able to put together the whistleblower retaliation checklist that I've now seen this case where for whistleblowers have

00:30:17.100 --> 00:30:28.890
Jacqueline Garrick: Won a case that resulted in a $58 MILLION REWARD we've had the article published. We've got a Springer Publishing Company has offered us

An opportunity to do a book on the harm caused by whistleblower retaliation. So we're going to start working on that and hopefully get something published in

00:30:41.700 --> 00:30:53.550
Jacqueline Garrick: Not the career path. But here we are. And I'm, I'm just so grateful and blessed for the people who have stepped forward in my life and have helped and supported us

00:30:54.780 --> 00:31:04.350
Jacqueline Garrick: It would be really nice if we could make more lemonade, if we had more funding and if people were donating. And we had sponsorship. So if you know anybody

00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:20.730
Kelly Paxton: Yeah, like I just, I've got some really good ideas. We'll talk offline afterwards. But I think that

00:31:21.990 --> 00:31:31.650
Kelly Paxton: Your book. It's going to be one of my giveaways. When I do presentations. Because when I do my honestly dishonest and you know how good people make bad choices.

00:31:32.280 --> 00:31:41.760
Kelly Paxton: I talked about whistleblowing so much because it's my soapbox. It is my absolute soapbox and if you put in the term whistleblower into the Google machine.

00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:42.660
Kelly Paxton: The words. That come out for synonyms are terrible word

00:31:45.360 --> 00:31:47.460
Kelly Paxton: Oh yeah, I want that changed, so

00:31:48.120 --> 00:31:57.180
Jacqueline Garrick: I have this book already published. This is the our little guidebook for I had put together. I wanted us to have a protocol for whistleblowers of America.

00:31:57.570 --> 00:32:07.470
Jacqueline Garrick: So I put together this little peer support mentor training manual and I started to introduce the terms gaslighting mobbing marginalizing so we had a taxonomy.

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Jacqueline Garrick: For talking to whistleblowers. This one is on how to be a good how to provide good peer support. But one of the things, and I've written to Microsoft. I've asked them to change their cinnamon list from rat tattletale

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Jacqueline Garrick: Said, yeah. I've asked them to change that so that

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Jacqueline Garrick: We can we can have a better descriptor like truth teller lamp lighter. Emphasis protectionist first three later.

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Jacqueline Garrick: responder. I mean, there were so many better words.

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Kelly Paxton: Oh. Oh, I am so with you there. I mean, I'm known as the fraud hashtag Queen and when I see a whistleblower story. My hashtag is hashtag whistleblowers are heroes.

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Kelly Paxton: And and I use that, you know, whenever I see a story like that. I just I okay I'm on it with you and Microsoft and the Google machine about that because that needs to be changed it truly, truly needs to be changed.

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Kelly Paxton: So I want to have you back when the book is published.

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Kelly Paxton: Absolutely. And I'm gonna, you know, talk to you about some other things about how to get more funding for you. And I just, I truly believe this is some of the

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Kelly Paxton: The best work that I can do is to help people to understand about whistleblowing and in meeting you. Finally, you know, via zoom, but still meeting you and

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Kelly Paxton: Then this is just, it's been wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. And what you are doing. I'm going to say is just the most important work you've done

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Kelly Paxton: You know and I know you've done suicide prevention, but as you do told me a story earlier that a whistleblower literally had a gun on their desk when they talk to you and it gave me chills.

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Kelly Paxton: And it gave me until so this work you're doing.

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Kelly Paxton: Keep going. And we're going to have it work so it, it works and it keeps going. So thank you again so much for coming today. Jackie,

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Jacqueline Garrick: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.