Great Women In Fraud

Episode 13 Mary Breslin CIA, CFE

December 22, 2020 Kelly Paxton, CFE
Great Women In Fraud
Episode 13 Mary Breslin CIA, CFE
Chapters
Great Women In Fraud
Episode 13 Mary Breslin CIA, CFE
Dec 22, 2020
Kelly Paxton, CFE

Mary Breslin knows how to throw a party.  I was very lucky to have been invited to her party at the Global ACFE in 2019.  When we are back in person you need to get the invite for ACFE Global.  What I love about this episode is that everything that Mary brings up is relevant, timely and actionable.  You will never look at a Lamborghini again the same way.  Or as the fraudsters say a Lambo.  "Internal auditors are my people" is just one of the takeaways.  We talk about accounting, COVID, full employment for fraud professionals and so much more.  

Show Notes Transcript

Mary Breslin knows how to throw a party.  I was very lucky to have been invited to her party at the Global ACFE in 2019.  When we are back in person you need to get the invite for ACFE Global.  What I love about this episode is that everything that Mary brings up is relevant, timely and actionable.  You will never look at a Lamborghini again the same way.  Or as the fraudsters say a Lambo.  "Internal auditors are my people" is just one of the takeaways.  We talk about accounting, COVID, full employment for fraud professionals and so much more.  

Show Notes:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/marybreslin/

https://verracy.com/

https://twitter.com/auditchic



Episode 13 Mary Breslin 

00:00:03.210 --> 00:00:11.219

Kelly Paxton: Okay, we are here again and I am so excited. Once again, I'm always excited for another Great Women in Fraud.  Today is Mary Breslin. So Mary. I'm going to like spoil it right after that I cannot believe she told me before she has had 12 certifications. Okay.

 Hashtag certification envy and Mary. Why don't you give a quick introduction about yourself and tell me what is your like worst and best certification.

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Mary Breslin: Oh. Well, to be fair,  you know, I was one of those people that collected them for years. And I think that a lot, a lot of them go like I got many years ago my certification in project management. Right, so I teach auditors project management, but I have not kept up the certification, because I have no intention of being, you know, a certified project manager and doing that kind of work. I think I for a long time, just I I'm a constant learner I pursue things of interest, but unfortunately my interest ebbs and flows right so I'm not so passionate about some of the things that I got certifications in but today I think I know my lane and my lane is is very, very strongly fighting fraud from the inside, which anybody who's heard me speak is heard me say that term, you know, internal auditors are my people.

And the vast majority of my fraud experience up to the past few years, when I became a hired gun. Was all through internal audit. You know, I started my first fraud cases as an auditor and then moving up the ranks to Chief auditor.

So my education and self education and all the reading. I do today is probably around primarily those things. What I think and help organizations protect themselves from the inside.

Against Ron, you know, and I know you said we're, we're not gonna talk about coven but I think we never needed it more than right now because we were about to get hit by a week.

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Kelly Paxton: Well, yeah. So, no, I'm fine. Talking about COVID. I have had some guests who are like, they're kind of done with COVID. Like the ACFE. They have come out with, you know, I think it's now there's second report.

Dealing with it and fraud and so you tell me why you think we're going to have the wave of  COVID fraud and I know I'm going to agree with you.

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Mary Breslin: So there's a number of things Kelly. Actually, I think you and I did a webinar.

Back in like early March, and we were probably the first people on record to start talking about the fact that we thought this was going to cause a wave.

And somebody just asked us like off the cuff and you and I are both like oh yeah this is going to cause problems. So I think there's a couple of key areas right anytime there's disruption and massive change it creates an increase in risk and fraud is one of those risks. Right.

And sometimes that risk is temporary. While we work through and sometimes it's permanent

And I think that at the beginning of  COVID organizations are trying to pivot very quickly and very hard to stay alive right, business continuity was what everything was about. It's what everybody was talking about.

And I think that decision making is done very differently when we think it's short term versus when we think it's something that's long term or permanent

And I think a lot of executives and a lot of organizations are willing to overlook or deal with later.

Unintended consequences of the decisions that they were making because I never thought we would still be talking about this and November.

That this was going to last a few weeks.

And I think for the next year, two years, we are going to be dealing with the ramifications of those quick pivots that making decisions at the speed of light, without really betting everything without fully understanding. Understanding of potential consequences.

And then the remoteness of course right but I think two of the biggest things that concern me is cyber, which I think is a good start for everybody. Only because

You now have 1000 additional points of contact right when everybody's sitting in the office and you're working

On the internet or you're working on your systems that are on your company's T one line and you're behind the firewall. You have a lot of protections that don't exist when you have, you know, thousands of people

All coming in office spectr  or Comcast or whatever their internet provider is all of those thousands of additional points of contact or additional opportunities for hackers.

 And people are not great with their passwords. People are still not good about their password for their Internet at home because they never really perceive it as a threat because they're in their home, which is a place of security and comfort.

And I think we're going to have something akin to what we saw.

 With, like the scandals about the garage door openers. I don't know if everybody remembers this. But years ago it was a big deal about, you know, there's only five, you know, different signals for garage door openers

 And it was kind of hard to reset them yourself today, it's a lot easier to do a reset, but they're still in like five signals that come out of the manufacturer and there's a reason for that. That's the manufacturer can take care of stuff.

 And these would go around with generic garage door openers and just try and open garage doors and they get like 20% of them in a neighborhood that would open up

 And they would rob people and people would leave their doors to their houses open from their garage, because they use the garage door as their, you know, protective zone.

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Mary Breslin: And I think we're entering a similar situation or we're in a similar situation right now.

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Mary Breslin: I think that hackers and cyber folks are driving around neighborhoods. Knowing everybody is working from home in a planned community and everybody's online, including the children doing remote school work.

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Mary Breslin: And they're trying to hack into things. We have seen a huge uptick in identity theft and phishing and malware attacks right ransomware and all of that. And I think that's going to play a big role. What I think is going to be the most devastating to the economy and to organizations, though, is going to be the accounting fraud. There is a lot happening that is going to require organizations to deal with it via accounting and I mean things like estimates and valuations and reserves and forecasts and traditionally, all of that accounting is done based on history and we have no history to base it on going forward.

And those things were already subjective, if you have, if you're a company that sells to other organizations. And you have accounts receivable a heavy accounts receivable, you have account contra account, you have a counter to that which is your AR reserve.

And let's just say 3% is normal for an organization. Okay, well, how do you know what it is today. How do you know about all what's going on and all those other organizations that owe you money. Are they really going to be able to pay you? Should it be 5% should it be 10%.

It's highly subjective.

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Mary Breslin: And because it's highly subjective. It's also easy to argue and convince external auditors and everybody else that you're right. Right. It's valuation. Like, how much is an iPhone four worth today.I could make an argue for zero and I could make an arg ent for $100 if I'm going to say I'm going to put them in a container and send them to Africa sell them.

I could make 100 bucks. Okay, or it's worth nothing. Right. So there's a lot of Sydney subjective Ness and we know from history.

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Mary Breslin: That the biggest scandals that we have seen started there. They started with subjective estimates and stuff and organizations pulling leavers. To hit targets. So I moved a little on my AR Reservs move a little bit of fair value estimates on my inventory

I move these leavers a little bit lower certain expense items increases profitability. I hit my Wall Street targets.

I think in about two years from now, we're going to see a wave of major accounting scandals, similar to what we saw in 2001 2002 and again in 2008 2009 because

companies are going to be able to use a subjectiveness to to make these moves, but also many companies that are already struggling may use  COVID as something to hide behind

And use it as an excuse for some of this performance. So,  , you know, the stuff coming out of the ACFE says the next, you know, 12 months I'm much more pessimistic than that. I don't think we're going to see the tidal wave of problems hit till probably 18 to 24 months.

But that's my own personal opinion, right. So that's what I think  COVID is going to actually do to us. Now I speak a lot to audit groups all over the world. And try and educate them on this stuff to get in front of it even asking questions even sitting down with your accounting department, saying, How are we going to handle these things.

How are we going to handle these reserves and these estimates and these valuations. You know, we have machinery that hasn't been running in nine months. Is that going to be fully impaired? Iisn't going to be written off. It doesn't have to be an audit.

Just having the conversation will make people aware that that stuff is going to be lookedd out and it might minimize the potential for shenanigans.

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Kelly Paxton: This perfectly leads into something you and I are both just extremely passionate about and that is kind of the psychological/ behavioral side of good people making bad choices, right. So,  , you know, you're going to have the psychopath. And I'm going to go psychopaths CEOs who are really, really pushing the boundaries, but you're also going to have the people who in the fraud triangle, we have pressure, opportunity and rationalization. We're having financial pressures that a generation, two generations has not seen before. And so you're going to see good people holding on to their jobs and they're getting pressure to hit n bers. Yeah. And so,  , this is what I we talked earlier before this fraud is such a trigger word

 Yeah, and

 If you say you're, you know, this is fraud, people are going to go. I would never commit fraud.

 Right. But when you're doing something subjective about estimates and it's like, you know, estimates that

 It's an art form.

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Kelly Paxton: And yeah, so I just and what a great reminder, because we did do this in like late March, early April, and I now that you remind me. We were the some of the first, if not the first to sip frauds come in, big time. 

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Mary Breslin: Yeah, so,  , I've always been a believer or at least I have for quite some time and it's really kind of been my focus in my education and my trying to expand my knowledge base is about behavioral science behind fraudsters right and I do believe that good people do bad things. I have personally seen it many times with some of the fraudsters I've been involved in interviewing and the fraud cases that I've done, where in every other aspect of their life they truly are just somebody to look up to, you know, highly involved in their community, their church volunteer genuinely a good person.

Not somebody who's putting on a facade because they are a psychopath in a suit like you're, you know, referencing but genuinely a good person, but then they still $2 million from the company right

And I have. I've seen that. And I do think good people do bad things, and I do not think that there's a single organization that goes bad overnight. I think it happens incrementally baby steps and I think something like

The subjectiveness of estimates and things like that. It's a continu . Right. It starts at first, you know, conservative is all the way over on one side and then a legal is all the way on this other side and as they pull these leavers as they move valuations and estimates and stuff to try and make their n bers look good, they get closer and closer and closer to illegal.

But when they actually step over highly subjective and not conservative at all to, you know, maybe overtly optimists. Into the actual world of fraud. Where what they're doing is fraudulent it's illegal. It's breaking GAAP and IFRS and everything else. It's a baby step. It's this small tiny step into that world. Because they have made all of these other baby steps up to that point.

Right where they moved incrementally to a place that is now going to be labeled illegal and fraudulent and they might not even be aware that they've stepped over that line. Right. And I do think that ethical people do bad things. They make unethical decisions.

Because of the way our brain works the way we process, you know, and in the context of what's happening in the world today. And what's happening in organizations they are justifying back to that fraud triangle right they are justifying helping their organization. And when we think we're helping something that matters in our life, a person or organization that employs so many people we really struggled to see it as being wrong or unethical and I do a whole series of talks and courses on this and that's called ethical blindness. Right. They just don't even see what's happened. And it's usually because of these small little baby steps.

You know, that's my passion, these days is understanding the behavior and 60 to 70% of our decision making process, our thought process or reasoning process is subconscious.

And, you know, there's many, many things that are happening. There's cognitive biases. There's this context that I just mentioned and most folks are not aware how dramatically that is influencing their decision making. And that's what causes them to be blind to the fact that they're doing something that's wrong or illegal or unethical or fraudulent. They don't even see it.

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Kelly Paxton: So you mentioned this before, that when coven started everyone was like, just, you know, duck and cover get get work done, get it done.

This kind of goes to it. People always think money solves the problem.  Short term money will solve a problem short term definitely most times money will solve it, but long term it doesn't solve the problem and actually kind of makes things worse.  , and so we do get that

And, you know, Danny Kahneman, Nobel Prize winner. You've got system one and system two thinking and System one is the quick hit thinking. And it turns out that system too much more like Spock is more ethical

But yeah, people want action.

And at the start of  COVID. It was just, how do we stay in business and we've seen these crazy coven frauds and PPP frauds come out because they just it was like I don't want to say free money, but when you see someone who has a business that maybe could fail that maybe doesn't fail and they go out and they buy a Maserati or like a really big boat. Oh my god. What were they thinking?

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Mary Breslin: So there's three fraud cases that I'm aware of. And I can't, I can't name them now because I don't have in front of me but there's three that I'm aware of.

Where business owners took their funds from the PPP and instead of taking care of their employees, like they were supposed to pay the rent, they still laid off all their employees and they went out and bought Lamborghinis Lamborghinis specifically three of

So there's three cases that I'm aware of. So I'm never going to look at a Lamborghini the same way  again in my life. I'm always going to see like a fraudster in that behind the wheel just because of that. Yeah, and there was a lot of unintended consequences and this always happens when money is thrown at anything. And I'm not saying that. I'm not. I don't think anybody did anything wrong, whether it's the government throwing money at things or organizations, making these quick decisions that are going to result in problems down the road. I think that everybody did what they needed to do to keep moving forward. Right. And, you know, we have to accept that and now we have to deal with the fallout from that right or prepare for it and try and prevent it.

There were a lot of unintended and bizarre consequences. I have a lot of friends who are small business owners and keep in mind that 80% of our economy  is a small business, it's not Wall Street. It's not big corporate America. The engine of our economy is truly small businesses who were the ones that were suffering and something weird happened because of the unemployment and the PPP and all of the factors that were happening. People that were on unemployment didn't want to come back to work... And they had to either fire those employees and then report them as being terminated or they had to go along with essentially fraud against the government right it created this very bizarre limbo situation that went on for a good month to month and a half. And depending on the state you were in.

For organizations and that created animosity and bad will and additional morale issues in some of these organizations and Kelly. You and I both know where that goes. Right.

If you tell an employee, you have to come back to work and take $400 less a week, then you're getting on unemployment, if you want to keep this job.

They're going to come back to work. Are they going to be able to justify getting that extra $400 out of you somehow?  I bet they are many of them will right so there was a lot of unintended consequences as a result of things that both the government and organizations did that they thought they were doing the right thing. Right. But when we have to make decisions at such a rapid rate. There is no way to think it all the way through and for see all of those potential outcomes and we didn't. And now we have to deal with it right so

COVID is I think I'm my employment is going to be pretty robust for the next couple years.

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Kelly Paxton: You know, and it's not going to be us defending psychopaths.

Us defending, you know, regular people

Yeah, who did some Yeah bad. bad things in. I'm going to say the heated moment. A lot of times

So, we have. I've got a whole list of questions when this could take forever, but it won't take forever. But I love this question how because we talked about it in advance. How long did it take you to see success and how do you define success?

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Mary Breslin: I love that, so I would honestly say that I declared success probably dozens of times in my life. Right. I, you know, and there's moments that really stand out that you remembered this you reach a certain level, or you received a certain pay level.

You got a certain title or you got a certain acknowledgement or you received a certain degree or certain certification and I think all of those momentsI  was declaring success and that moment in time. And then three months goes by, six months goes by, and now I'm looking for the next thing. Right. So now I'm looking for. What's the next thing?  And so now I'm no longer successful enough in my brain. Now I want the next thing. And I think that I think a lot of people are like that. Like, there is no definition of success, except in the moment, right, because we're constantly changing what we strive for.

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Kelly Paxton: So yeah, I mean I so much used to consider success is a you know a salary or wage. Right now that has nothing to do with my success, you know,


00:21:06.870 --> 00:21:07.380

Mary Breslin: I think you also get to a certain place in life where it, you start thinking about things like legacy. You know, like I sure as heck can think about something like legacy. When I was 30 you know today, I think, how are people going to remember me. Did I help people make differences or not, you know, and those are questions that are definitely a big part of what I consider to be success for myself. Where is earlier in my life. Certainly not, you know,

00:21:34.050 --> 00:21:40.740

Kelly Paxton: And that is why we have great women in fraud because and I'm lucky enough to have guests, like you, because we have

 People consider us quote to be successful, and I want to share the success. And I know you have you've been incredibly generous, the whole time we've known each other you us through an amazing party at the ACFE global two years ago.

I fall and I hope you do it again. Next summer when hopefully we're back in person.

00:22:00.060 --> 00:22:07.590

Mary Breslin: I sure hope so, that is the plan, we would have done it this year, too. But yeah, that's like Christmas week to me, the global ACFE is absolutely one of my favorite weeks of the year. It is like Christmas for me, you know, we did with various he goes up my company goes up big and we do lots of giveaways and parties and stuff, primarily because I want to

You know, I, one of the things I think one of the reasons that I love it whereas I get to speak at these wonderful conferences and I get to share

You know what sliver of wisdom I have about the industry with other folks. I also learn stuff every single time I go right like it's amazing to me how much there is still to learn

You know, and so I remember last year, I actually just spoke at the ACFE Canadian conference last week, right. And I was up against the gentleman who did the emoji talk at global ACFE, this year I was not up against him at the global conference, but I was joking with him.

I he blew me out of the water. Like, I can't remember the last time I sat through somebody's presentation and was blown away.

I mean, I learned stuff, but to be completely blown away in an industry that I feel I'm fairly well knowledgeable in was such a fantastic feeling. I was just upset that him and I were in the same time slots this past week, so I didn't get to sit through it again. But yeah, he's a fantastic emojis. Investigating fraud through emojis. How's that for fun?

00:23:49.050 --> 00:23:54.330

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, well. And again, this is another theme that's come through every episode so far is the cheesy lifelong learner and curiosity and I you know it happens in lots of industries that I think in investigations and fraud that's our bread and butter is to be curious and to the dots and then connect the dots.

00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:23.580

Mary Breslin: Yeah, you know, I used to be very proud of my technical skills, my friends, accounting skills, you know, and my data analytic skills which I owe vast majority of the success of my career to You know, and today I'm I think I'm much more proud of my human behavioral insights. It's a progression. You know, I've certainly have not turned my back on my forensic accounting or my data analytics, because God knows I need those right

But, you know, we could do we continue to expand, you know, our knowledge base and continue to learn and I think when I look back at cases I've done. It's always like, how could I have done that better and for me I think for a long time. It was like, if I had been better at interviewing, I would have probably gotten more out of people, not just the fraudster but witnesses and stuff. And so then that became the direction you know there's only so much you can extract from a spreadsheet, you know,

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Kelly Paxton: I used to say that I had better soft skills and hard skills and I and I kind of minimized it, I was like, because I thought everyone could do it.

I thought everyone could ask that question your see that tic, you know,  ,

I just assumed that people could do it and I minimized. It

And I absolutely do not minimize it now because human nature is just, you know,

00:25:38.280 --> 00:25:45.180

Mary Breslin: It's all about human behavior. I mean, everything is, you know, it's all about the actions and the decisions that we take and

You know, life's a team sport in the work that we do as a team sport and you know everything's about behaviors, you know, and that's that was a hard lesson learned for me. And I think, you know, minimizing it and I'm making it a total generic judgy comment here, but I think that that's a very female thing that we do. I think that we are not I know for you. I do a lot of female like forward talks and stuff. And I know for many, many, many years. I thought if I just do a great job, people will see that, and I will get the recognition and the credit I deserve and that is just not how it works. You know, you have to self promote you have to make sure people know what your capabilities are. And I, this is a sad thing for me to admit. But I really did not learn that lesson until I founded this firm.And you have to self promote, you go out of business. You know, so it was became I learned that out of absolute necessity and it makes me wonder if I had been better at it back, you know, many years ago, if I hadn't just waited to be recognized for things

if it would have changed the trajectory of my career, you know,

00:27:07.530 --> 00:27:32.490

Kelly Paxton: I so agree with you there because I'm as little girls. I'm going to say little girls we’re taught to you know be seen and not heard. And I can give you so many examples, but I truly believe that where I've ended up has been, it's not strategic but I'm never been so happier.

Then things do happen for a reason. And this goes to mentoring and telling this sort of younger group and listeners to this is being patient and things do but also taking ownership of it and taking ownership of it at an earlier age. I think you and I were about the same age and we didn't, we didn't see it. And now we have better role models. 

00:28:00.330 --> 00:28:07.770

Mary Breslin: I agree, and I remember you know I did fairly well I did I mean Idid well. I really can't complain about my career.

But I do have moments where I remember like being patted literally I can't make this stuff up literally had a vice president and the company. I was working for I had just been promoted to director literally pat me on the head and tell me that I had done very good for a girl.


00:28:27.660 --> 00:28:28.350 Kelly Paxton: Oh my god.

00:28:29.340 --> 00:28:37.950

Mary Breslin: And then he proceeded to tell me that he hoped I didn't have any wild and crazy aspirations or expectations that I would climb any higher than that.

Yeah world story.

00:28:43.170 --> 00:28:49.260

Kelly Paxton: I have, I have a similar story to that where I signed a partnership agreement with a senior male financial advisor and the

Sort of managing director came up to me and told me how lucky I was that he would agree to such a generous schedule and I just looked at him and I was like,  I kind of think it works both ways.

And I have this thing that I have always had the mentality of the F You fund. There have been times in my life where I didn't actually have an F you  fund that I had

I had the persona that I would walk away at any point and they didn't know whether I have the F You  fund or what, but I had, I definitely had the, you know,

And it wasn't don't mess with me. It was, I don't need this as much as you need me. And that's one thing I tell young professionals, is you always have to be able to walk away, and this goes to human  nature. And I saw your presentation of the ACFE. We have to be able to walk away from a bad situation.

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Mary Breslin: Right., let me. I'm going to make one more comment about like Female. Female forward thinking.  I think one of the things that I learned through my career.

As I look back and look at the mentors. I had they were all men.  Every single mentor. I had who really help support me and promote me and invested time in my career and my career advancement was a man and there were women available that should have been in those roles and they weren't and I don't think that women naturally are good at promoting and helping and embracing and supporting other women. Sometimes I know and and and I'm

certainly not picking on anybody. I'm going to tell you my own personal experience for many, many years. I thought that I because I had made it that I was special or smarter or stronger or had a stronger backbone or whatever it was that I was enduring the same kind of nonsense that everybody was enduring. And if I could do it, anybody could do it. And that is a and then we and then it becomes like a badge of honor that I made it in a man's world kind of thing, because I certainly was. I was an investment banking. I was in mining. I was in oil and gas right

What a load of malarkey. And I don't think I was alone and thinking that, and it was subconscious. It wasn't like something I thought and wrote down on a mandate of my own, and it was you know, something that was in the subconscious in my brain. But I think that there's a lot of successful women who subconsciously have those types of thoughts.

and therefore, we don't support each other or help each other as much as we should. And I think that organizations are starting you know,ACFE just rolled out a women's initiative, which I'm a part of and i ISACA has had one for a few years that I'm a part of that I adore. They do a great job.And we're starting to see more and more of this intentional stuff.

But we should have seen a lot more of it on personal levels than I think many of us have and I you know I'm guilty of it too. I'm not gonna pretend I wasn't, I think I've changed a lot in the last 10 years nd aM much better. But, uh, yeah. When I look back and I see every single mentor I ever had was a man, I don't think I'm the only successful female that would say that exact same sentence.

00:32:16.530 --> 00:32:20.190

Kelly Paxton: Oh, every mentor. I've had until recently has been a man

Yeah. And I will say my worst boss was a woman absolutely worst ever boss was a woman with a huge imposter syndrome. And so, made it incredibly difficult

but yeah, now it yeah I've. I've joined this compliance community, sort of, and that's how I got great women in fraud was from great women and compliance and

They just wrote a book, Sending the Elevator Back Down all about, you know,

00:32:50.100 --> 00:33:02.850

Kelly Paxton: What they've learned from doing that. And it's just we have to step into it. Again, another reason for great women in fraud is getting I know you get these calls I get these pick your brain calls

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Kelly Paxton: And yeah, love to do it, but I wanted to create a community where everyone could share in all of this, like benevolence.

Right, yeah. So we're going to have to cut it here. I could talk to you for absolutely forever.

But I want to let you say where you can find you online and what you are most excited about right now.

00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:35.070

Mary Breslin: Okay, so yeah, so you can find me one. Follow me on LinkedIn and Twitter and all that good stuff. You can find me at verracy.com. We do a lot of cool stuff in my organization. We do a lot of free webinars is Kelly well knows, because she's, she's done them with us.

Where we actually give out see CPEs we give our continuing education credits for them.

But we, they're really sharing knowledge webinars. They're not marketing tools or anything like that. It's we're really sharing and I'm very excited for a couple things I have a book coming out. I have a new website that we're launching at the start of the year.

We have a whole bunch of new initiatives that are going along with that training opportunities, speaking opportunities. So we're going to do a big push a big launch in January, so follow us at verracy.com and you will see all those great things. And when we celebrate as Kelly will tell you, we love to give stuff away for free. 

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Kelly Paxton:  and then is there any last thing you want to tell the listeners that I haven't asked or that we haven't hit upon

00:34:43.260 --> 00:34:46.200

Mary Breslin: Yeah. One last thing I'm going to just circle back to COVID. 

Remember that nobody expected this to go on as long as it has. And one of the interesting things about human  behavior is it only takes us to witness something or experienced something three times for it to become normalized and now, most of the things that should have been red flags, the beginning of  COVID have become normalized because they've occurred, more than three times. So know that and look for that.

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Kelly Paxton: Oh what excellent advice. Thank you so, so much. Mary. This has been awesome and I look forward to having you back because we're like, I don't know, two daughters two girls separated at birth. I think we truly are. So thank you.

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Mary Breslin: Thank you, Kelly was a pleasure.