Great Women In Fraud

Episode 18 Chelsea Binns, Professor, Author, Researcher & Investigator

January 26, 2021 Kelly Paxton, CFE
Great Women In Fraud
Episode 18 Chelsea Binns, Professor, Author, Researcher & Investigator
Chapters
Great Women In Fraud
Episode 18 Chelsea Binns, Professor, Author, Researcher & Investigator
Jan 26, 2021
Kelly Paxton, CFE

Chelsea Binns is another fantastic guest for Great Women in Fraud.  We have been in the same circles for many years but finally got to catch up and actually talk to each other.  Her story of how she became an investigator and then became a professor is inspiring.  Her dedication to her career is wonderful.  She didn't take the fork in the road.  She took both forks!  I think you are going to love this and maybe even be inspired for more education.  
We talk books, favorite crimes shows and lots more. 

Be sure and reach out to Chelsea: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chelseabinns/

Show Notes Transcript

Chelsea Binns is another fantastic guest for Great Women in Fraud.  We have been in the same circles for many years but finally got to catch up and actually talk to each other.  Her story of how she became an investigator and then became a professor is inspiring.  Her dedication to her career is wonderful.  She didn't take the fork in the road.  She took both forks!  I think you are going to love this and maybe even be inspired for more education.  
We talk books, favorite crimes shows and lots more. 

Be sure and reach out to Chelsea: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chelseabinns/

Please reach out to Chelsea on LinkedIn. 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/chelseabinns/

Amazon author page: https://www.amazon.com/s?i=stripbooks&rh=p_27%3AChelsea+A.+Binns&s=relevancerank&text=Chelsea+A.+Binns&ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1


Newest book: https://www.amazon.com/Safety-Security-Sharing-SpringerBriefs-Criminology/dp/3030593053/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&qid=1611703352&refinements=p_27%3AChelsea+A.+Binns&s=books&sr=1-3&text=Chelsea+A.+Binns


Art of Investigation https://www.amazon.com/Art-Investigation-Chelsea-Binns/dp/1138353787/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=chelsea+binns&qid=1611703323&sr=8-1


Fraud Hotlines:

https://www.amazon.com/Fraud-Hotlines-Design-Performance-Assessment-dp-1498727433/dp/1498727433/ref=mt_other?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=1611703422


Show Notes


00:00:03.840 --> 00:00:13.769

Kelly Paxton: Here we have today, Chelsea Binns and I am just absolutely honored to have her is another Great Woman in Fraud and there's a lot of reasons. I am honored to have her.  But I want her to introduce herself and and then I will tell you why I am like a stalker. So, Chelsea. Actually, Dr. Chelsea Binns. Please introduce yourself.

00:00:24.990 --> 00:00:37.170

Chelsea Binns: Yes, of course. Well, first of all. Hi Kelly, and thank you for having me. My name is Chelsea Binns. I'm an assistant professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, in New York City.

00:00:38.220 --> 00:00:48.810

Kelly Paxton: And the part I love about that is you have your PhD. You are a professor. My husband is retired professor. I want to be a professor, but

Actually I spoke at the ACFE conference and I said something about

I want to be a professor, but I'm too old to go back to school and I actually got two reviews from people who said maybe she's a lot older than she looks, but they both were offended that I said that. But because my husband had been through 13 years of university. It doesn't make financial sense for me to be a professor. So I'm a wannabe professor, you're quite a bit younger. But I was honored that they said that, but it was really just a financial reason and I knew

That we would have to like move for a position for me. So it was a non starter, but I'm just like to be a criminology professor, I think, is amazing.

00:01:35.460 --> 00:01:39.690

Chelsea Binns: Well, thank you very much and you are correct in that it's never too late. So if anyone is thinking about it. It really is never too late in my classes, you know, the age groups spanned widely so people right out of college and people that had had other careers prior, and this was sort of their second or third career. Even so, it's never too late.

00:01:57.600 --> 00:02:00.120

Kelly Paxton: Yeah okay well that's good to know. That is good.

So I have some questions that I always ask and like one of the first ones is if you were going to write a book, what would it be about. But you've written three books. So why don't you just talk briefly about each of your books because they're very different

00:02:15.390 --> 00:02:26.160

Chelsea Binns: They are yet, they do have a common theme so in a lot of the work that I do is centered on investigations, of course, and also security related topics. Which suits my background. Having worked in corporate security and investigations departments and so a lot of the ideas that I have for research. Came from that experience. And so when you talk about the work that I've done, you'll see. And when we talked throughout the course of the podcast, you'll see that shine through. But my first book was about fraud hotlines fraud hotlines design performance and assessment and I've always been fascinated by fraud hotlines. Ever since I started the PhD program in 2007 and I can't tell you exactly why. Except I think the thing that really draws me to the topic. Is the fact that we have these hotlines in place and they're mandated in many industries, including the financial industry where I worked as a mechanism to hear about fraud yet.

00:03:21.450 --> 00:03:33.210

Chelsea Binns: I find it over the course of my research that they're highly underutilized. And I'm fascinated by that, especially given the fact that we know that one in five people know about fraud in the workplace. And I want to know why we're not reporting it as a society, and I think I may never get fully an answer to that. I do have some theories and I talked about those in my book. I have some ideas I don't think we'll ever fully know exactly why. And I think one of the reasons is because we don't have the data really to study.

Hotlines and to study the reporting that's coming through and to be able to see and talk to the people that have submitted reports and see what their motivations were for doing so, or talk to people that this is a completely untapped population, but to talk to people that would have submitted something and didn't and and to hear about why they may not have done that. So these are the things that fascinate me. And I talked about in my first book about fraud hotlines next work that I did was the art of investigation.

So again in my Security Investigations theme. I'm very interested in the professionalization of investigations in general. And there's really just a lack of material out there that accomplishes this and this is one of my research goals over time. And so this work is feeds into that goal and what we do in the Art of Investigation is we look at, and this is what makes it so unique and so fun.

Is that we take a look at the qualities of a great investigator and we curated myself and my co author Bruce Sackman and we curated a list of 15 of those qualities and we invited Quote famous investigators to come in and give us their take on these qualities in terms of how they utilize them to improve their investigations or how perhaps they may not have utilize these qualities to their detriment. And we do have some great stories where both sides are covered.

In a case study fashion. And it's just a great resource, particularly for your new investigator your student of investigations, although I will say that I've had many seasoned investigators say that they read this work and how much they got out of it. So I really think there's something in there for everyone.

 And so that's the Art of Investigation. And finally, my last work, we took a look at security in the hotel and home sharing industry.  And that work is a comparative piece where we analyzed the security procedures and processes that are utilized in the hotel industry comparatively to the home sharing industry and to some incredible findings, but this work is very unique to again in that it's one of the research in this area is very light in terms of hotel security and security for home sharing  is extremely light in terms of the research literature. So this work by pulling all that in and comparing the security of again processes and procedures of what you see in both industries. With a with a connected purpose is, is a great work that I think it's going to really help you know researchers and travelers alike.


00:06:59.010 --> 00:07:07.530

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, so I think I mean I want all three of the books because I have literally something for each of them, but the security hotel and home sharing that hits close to home. I have a a friend's daughter who actually was, you know, I'm going to say violated via video in a situation like that in a foreign country and it was horrifying. And it's horrifying to these day, to this day, and so many people, you know, people can joke about Airbnb that you should go around and check cameras and things like that, but, do they know how and is it just kind of a joke. It's not a joke. I don't think it's a joke at all. So, we will have links to all three of your books, but I think that is such is so well needed right now.

00:07:52.350 --> 00:08:02.400

Chelsea Binns: Yes, absolutely. And I will say that the experience that your relative. Was it your relative head is something that's been documented.

In over the course of my research with myself and my, my co author Robin Kim's on the security book we found many instances. Of this were hidden cameras were located. Now to be clear in cameras to some degree are permitted there permitted, such as a ring type camera. If you disclose it in your listing. However, people found cameras in places that were for all intensive purposes considered private by both the renter, and the rent 

 So this is a serious concern and those are never permitted in a home sharing space. I'll give one example. One was a hidden hidden or disguised, if you will, as a air freshener.

00:08:52.560 --> 00:08:54.270

Chelsea Binns: Yeah, in a, in a bathroom. Oh, yes. And another was disguised as a phone charger. Another case. So, yes. So these are things to look out for. And yeah.

Good to know.

00:09:08.400 --> 00:09:14.100

Kelly Paxton: My family thinks I'm crazy as it is when I, you know, I'm a little more paranoid than the average person.

00:09:16.410 --> 00:09:17.940

Chelsea Binns: Investigator in you.

00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:34.950

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, we're actually having to go in staying at an Airbnb next week, and I will be checking things out. Whereas in a hotel. I probably wouldn't near as much been in an Airbnb, but now hearing this, I yeah I'm gonna be all over it.

00:09:35.040 --> 00:09:40.260

Chelsea Binns: So I would say in all settings right it's always important to be aware right to just survey your surroundings. I mean, even in a hotel setting, when you get there, you want to take a look at the hallway, take a look at the configuration where your exits.Where the points of entry. You know if you ever had to leave an emergency, there's, there's that map on the back of the door and and a lot of times people you know don't pay attention to, but it really is important. So these things. So it's just great to be aware right and sort of the same You know, dynamic applies if you when you go to your home sharing space, you know, check it out. Walk around to do a surveillance if you will have the location and and see if, you know, everything looks okay and and also, you know, if I had an emergency, how would I get out of here. Which way would I go where's the nearest law enforcement agency or fire you know it's it's good to just be aware of these things.

00:10:31.110 --> 00:10:34.650

Kelly Paxton: Well, yeah, and technology has gotten so reasonably priced you know In the past, I would say, these would be thousands of dollars of, you know, investment by a homeowner to do this. But now, no, no, no. You go to Costco, you go to, you know, Best Buy and you can fully outfit for I'm insane couple hundred bucks. It's

00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:55.020

Chelsea Binns: Very inexpensive and that's why the technology. It's more ubiquitous. You see a lot more often.

00:10:55.470 --> 00:11:06.120

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, yeah. Well, all three of the books, you know, very much needed and I'm going to say for great lemon and fraud, I realized were uncovered and everything, but most of his travels for work. I mean I travel for work. And just to have that awareness that extra bit of knowledge I you know it can't hurt. And I would have never, I wouldn't have thought of, like, a book that niched it down. But I think it's fantastic. It's like, what a great resource. So kudos to you. So what do you have booked. Number four is started because I know in academia publish or perish. I bet you have book number four started

00:11:37.740 --> 00:11:42.150

Chelsea Binns: I do, I do. I'm working on the Art of Investigation to

Okay, so that'll be my project for 2021 we're going to invite 15 new authors to to give us some great stories so

00:11:53.070 --> 00:11:56.190

Kelly Paxton: Ooh, I have some suggestions for you. We can talk offline.

I'm up and comers that I'm from Great women in Fraud. I get a lot of people who reach out and things like that. So yeah you. I don't know if you already have your pipeline full but I probably have some people that you might be interested in.

00:12:11.970 --> 00:12:15.060

Chelsea Binns: I always looking for great suggestions. Oh, yeah.

00:12:15.750 --> 00:12:30.780

Kelly Paxton: And to the audience. If you guys want to reach out directly, we will have the links to Chelsea Twitter and LinkedIn, you know, this is one of the things about GW is is we need to get out there and be heard because there are so many conferences were in. I'm not going to say it's the fault of a conference organizer. The women don't put their names in the hat.

And that's part of this podcast and all that I'm doing is to get women to put their names in the hat, because you know, there are plenty of conferences that we can say are mammals, but we don't know if did they ever actually get people, women to or, you know, minorities put to put their name in the hat. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah, well, I knew you would have book number four going this, like I said, publish or perish.

00:13:13.980 --> 00:13:17.040

Kelly Paxton: What is the best compliment you have ever received

00:13:19.140 --> 00:13:31.560

Chelsea Binns: Wow, that's a tough one. Um, I would, I would probably say, you know, my best compliments are the ones that I take the most to heart or from my students You know, I just love my students, and it's the reason why I'm an educator. To begin with, and the feedback that I get from them. It's, it's just humbling and there are so many times when you know I'll have a class and that class is really hard to read. And sometimes, you know, especially

in person when we had in person classes and you know I would sometimes get some looks that, you know, I wasn't sure about. And sometimes, you know, students may not participate as much as I would like. And I thought, oh, you know, they probably are not you know maybe thrilled with me and then I would read the feedback forms from the

00:14:16.770 --> 00:14:27.960

Chelsea Binns: From the class and I would be crying because those students when we connected, both in and outside of the classroom, you know, even though I didn't feel the love I say I really from their comments. I realized how much I had helped them without even realizing it, you know, that time that they just sent me my resume their resume and said, Can you take a look

Or that time where and I thought of it as nothing because it's something that I do all the time, you know, and you don't realize the impact that you have on people until you read it after the fact. Are times that, you know, they asked for me for advice on how to get into the field of fraud, you know, a lot of women as well. In my classes asked me that a lot, you know, how did you get started, you said that you've heard similar and, you know, just to have these conversations and to know that they have had an impact. Is just so amazing. And I'm just so thankful for those experiences and whether my feedback is good or bad. You know, I appreciate all of it. But you know the

 It's the ones that stand out to me are the ones that have said, you know, thank you for for doing this. And in particular, there was one that I received from LinkedIn. I had, you know, I go on there, a lot and I know you do too. I enjoy LinkedIn. It's my only social media. And on there. I will often like different job listings that I see for the benefit of my students that I know are connected to me and I've actually had students reach out to me and say,

Thank you for, you know, liking that job because it came into my feet and I applied and I got it.

And I would have never thought to reach out to that organization. I didn't know they existed or that job was not on my radar.

 And I thought, oh, that's I'm so glad that I got that feedback because now I do it all the time. I've done it. So my connections will say, you always like jobs, what we get. Why, you know, and so it's appreciate hearing that feedback because it shows me that that's something that I need to be keep doing so.

00:16:26.910 --> 00:16:35.250

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, I knew you were gonna say that the best compliment came from a student, because like I said my husband is a professor. I remember my dad was in a hospital rehab center. And he's like, you got to meet this young kid. And I said, Okay, Dad. What is it,

And this kid comes in and he's a physical therapist and my dad says to the kid. Tell them what you told me earlier and the the physical therapist said

Your husband is Dr Paxton and he took me to Africa. My husband used to take students to Africa and he said it was the best experience of my life.

 And until that point, I don't think my dad thought my husband was like you know that great of a professor is like, oh yeah, teaches you know but when he. I mean, yeah, he said. It changed my life.  And when we can change someone's life and you know I love to connect people. I just, that is my thing is connecting people and connecting the dots and when you can do it for someone who's young or starting out in a new industry. I just, I don't think there's anything better.

00:17:33.690 --> 00:17:40.050

Chelsea Binns: No, and I agree with that. We are extremely similar that way. Nothing gives me more satisfaction and then seeing one of my students land that amazing job or that incredible internship and if it was because of an introduction that I made. I mean, I just feel like that's my purpose in the world.

00:17:51.840 --> 00:17:55.080

Kelly Paxton: Yeah. Oh, so, so much. I'm so is in this is going to be data. How is covid impacting you and your teaching. But then also, you know, just everything else.

00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:18.210

Chelsea Binns: Oh, you're welcome. As we have the case with a lot of people, everything's online. So before we did. We always taught online as well as in person. But in an instant, you know, everything went online and I think, you know, some professors may have struggled more with that than others, especially, you know, some were always teaching online more than others. Some may not have been teaching online at all. So, when suddenly they had to overnight. I think some struggled with that a little bit more than others.

Or were challenged by it. So, so luckily for me. I was teaching online and it was more of a seamless transition in that sense, but nevertheless. Oh, and also, of course, for everything else that we do in the industry, the conferences that we do presentations. Which I've done several since the pandemic, but of course they've all been online and I've seen so many times people

In you know industry groups organizations attempt to schedule an in person conference and keep having to push it back and push it back and

And now we're into you know 2021 I'm seeing things scheduled out to 2022. And I just wonder, I guess it's like, along with a lot of other people, you know, when we will ever get that experience again. But I think one thing that I've learned is that I can do it. I can do fully online all the time. I can do all of my presentations virtually with many different types of systems. Many different venues. You know, I wouldn't have necessarily had that confidence that that's something that I could pull off and and do as seamlessly as I have since the pandemic. But, and I think I'm very, you know, I share that with a lot of other people who may have not done everything virtually but nevertheless, I still do hope.You know that we do one day regain those personal experiences. But I do think that we have learned that overall that we are you know more connected

00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:35.700

Chelsea Binns: than we ever thought possible. You know, I've seen a number of people that are far away physically virtually more than I have in a long time because of everything being more connected virtually. So I think, I think there's a lot of positive outcomes to to to a negative situation.

00:20:36.870 --> 00:20:42.150

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, so I'm speaking at the ACFE Finland, I spoke at the IMA Mid East. I did Australia granted I was going to be in Australia and do it in person and covid hit. So that was a real bummer because I was going to be able to do it in person, but ended up doing it on zoom. We're getting to spread our word to a wider audience. But at the same time. There's nothing better than getting up in front of a group of people and having that sort of quick interactions and I did a presentation. The other day, and you know, everyone has their cameras turned off and you're not seeing if they're asleep or not or you don't know how maybe your humor lands, because you can't really feel it.

Yeah, but there are other people getting to see our work that couldn't before. So there are some positives to it, but yeah.

00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:47.790

Chelsea Binns: Yeah, I agree with that. I 100% agree with that. And one thing, to your point, one of the conferences that I did online was the ACP Bahamas chapter and so of course selfishly, I thought this would be amazing in person.

But I still, you know, had such a great connection. And I thought, you know, same as you that this is a group that it was so incredible to meet and speak with and work with and, you know, had they not had this conference in this opportunity. I wouldn't have otherwise been able to

00:22:05.970 --> 00:22:11.730

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, yeah. So there, it's not all negative. I mean, a lot of its negative, but it's not all negative. Absolutely. Um, and this is a little bit of a personal question, but it gives people and I better sense because they're not seeing you is like how would your family and friends describe you and your career.

00:22:26.820 --> 00:22:30.150

Chelsea Binns: I think they would describe me as probably mysterious

I would say even my own brother would tease me and say that I must be in the CIA. Because maybe I'm a little bit too mysterious at times. I don't mean it, but I guess it's just my nature.But also they say, I guess, towards the education side, they would say that I'm really hard working and ambitious. I know a lot of people

Especially a good friends of mine were were shocked when I was going on for a PhD. They weren't shocked that I would do it personally but just more like, Oh, you just you just got a master's degree. Like, why are you Why are you going back to school, aren't you aren't you done with school. Yeah.

And I just, I'm one of those lifelong learners. Iwould continue to to go to school. If I could but now I'm continuing to learn through the research that I do and educate through the research that I do and it's been a great transition, but yeah I think that's what people would probably say about me.

00:23:44.580 --> 00:23:44.910

Kelly Paxton: Well,

I listened to you on John Hoda’s podcast and the whole so I will also put a link to that in the show notes, but your schedule was insane. While you were getting your PhD, you were working full time. I mean, I just, I was tired, listening to it. So kudos to you to do that. And, you know, and to have the drive and You know, I want you guys to listen to that episode because it's a really, really good episode. But you thought, well, I'll do one or the other. Maybe get one or the other. And you ended up getting both and instead of turning it down you did both. And that was huge. I thought that was just, you know,

00:24:29.370 --> 00:24:40.830

Chelsea Binns: Yes, in terms of yeah my the opportunity that I got to work at Morgan Stanley. Yeah. We certainly at a crossroads because you know everyone that has gotten a PhD is said You know, it's almost impossible to do it, part time including my own advisors, you know, how are you possibly going to do that. And I just said, You know, I'm just going to do it as long as I can. And whenever I can't do it anymore. I will stop and I day didn't come

00:25:00.630 --> 00:25:03.690

Kelly Paxton: You didn't do the fork in the road, you just did the whole fork.

00:25:04.800 --> 00:25:06.360

Chelsea Binns: Hey, I did. I did, but I will say that it wasn't

00:25:09.090 --> 00:25:20.370

Chelsea Binns: Easy and it may not be for everybody, but I know that my story has inspired a lot of people, especially students of mine. So I would encourage anyone. That, that, you know, has the, I guess, the desire to go back to school and then there are also, you know, third challenge with also wanting or needing to work full time while they do that.

 You know, that is something that can be done. You know, there are sacrifices that would have to be made, but it is something that that's possible.

00:25:43.890 --> 00:25:51.480

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, absolutely. I you know I see my daughter will probably she's gonna get a Masters, for sure. And it wouldn't surprise me.

00:25:52.590 --> 00:25:55.890

Kelly Paxton: If she went farther. So who knows, we'll have to see.

Yeah. Um, so what are some of the best resources that have helped you and it can be, you know, people or things along your career. What are some of the best resources.

00:26:08.280 --> 00:26:21.360

Chelsea Binns: Well, for one, I would say the major industry groups. I have been amazing, right, the ACFE has been outstanding. I have had so many opportunities so many leadership opportunities. Obviously, training and education opportunities, but I've also been very active involved in involved with the SPI. So I can attest to those experiences, right. I've been a chapter leader of the New York Chapter I was chapter President hours on the board for many, many years.

00:26:40.080 --> 00:26:50.910

Chelsea Binns: I was there. Training Director for a long time before becoming president. So I was involved heavily on the local level and then I've also been involved with with the CFE, global chapter the national organization, if you will, doing serving on several committees. And I've enjoyed all of those experiences just met incredible people. And, you know, you just can't replicate those experiences. So I've really enjoyed that. So that's been a great resource. Also, some of the smaller organizations, right. The Society of Professional investigators for one You know such amazing networking and the experiences I've had there and you know their past president Bruce Ackman and being the co author of my book, you know, because of again those relationships that I built over time, and that was also, you know, great resource. And there's been many others along the way. I would say my

00:27:41.670 --> 00:27:49.950

Chelsea Binns: People have been, you know, such a great resource, there's been so many amazing people, you know, former supervisors that I had

People that I've networked with over the years and in these industry groups and that have just, you know, led to so many great opportunities and experiences and You know, I'm just a big I'm big believer in getting involved in your industry. In whatever capacity that that you are comfortable with, whether it's just You know, attending local meetings or or taking it all the way and you know serving on the board or even just volunteering, you know, for an event, or two, or I think anything that you can do those connections are so valuable those experiences so valuable.

00:28:27.600 --> 00:28:36.990

Kelly Paxton: That's a common you you brought up several comments reds life lifelong learner everyone that comes on the show talks about it. You just, you can't stop. The relationships and networking and then getting involved. I mean, I think those are the keys to success and also now I might have this, correct me if I'm wrong. Like you kind of ran out of an internship, but you kept asking, and that's how I got involved in law enforcement, I picked up the phone, one day, and I made a call and it changed my life. So that sort of tenacity, I would say, is another

00:29:02.700 --> 00:29:17.310

Chelsea Binns: Absolutely no there's no question, no, you're absolutely right. I actually arranged to do an internship in investing. I really wanted to get in investigations. Right. And it's so hard starting out, and I've

00:29:17.910 --> 00:29:27.990

Chelsea Binns: Talked to so many students about this right. It's really difficult because they always want experience. But when you're just starting out, you're a recent graduate you don't have that experience. So I was working full time. And what I did was I found that there were internships for investigators. But how was I going to do that when I had a full time job. It's right so I ended up making an arrangement with them with my employer. To work for them. On Saturday, instead of Friday. So I sort of swap those days and then I volunteered and slash interns on the Friday and investigative capacity for

Incidentally, for the New York City Department of investigation and that experience jump started my whole investigative career. And, you know, was it easy. No, it was certainly a sacrifice, because now you know I was working six days a week instead of five and you know everything that goes along with that. But it was you know the best move that I could have made. And so when I have people tell me students or otherwise, you know, well,

 You know I'm struggling or how do I do this, you know, this is an option, you know, if you can do it. I know it's not for everyone, but if you can do that, that's one way that you can sort of get that experience.

 You know, see if you can make some kind of arrangement and and I realized that it never hurts to ask, you know, at first I thought I can't ask my employer if

 If I can't come in on a Friday, they're going to fire me, you know, they're gonna say, of course, you don't want to work on a Friday. You know who I was just, you know, I was a little reluctant but then I just thought, you know, why not, you know, what do I really have to lose. They I would hope they just wouldn't fire me for asking, and my intentions are good, you know, they're ultimately we're good. So I was glad that I did it in the end. But I will say that I was hesitant.

00:31:11.250 --> 00:31:11.850

Kelly Paxton: Because yeah, you just you have to ask. I mean, what's the well. The worst thing is, yes, they could fire you. But you know, hopefully not in this environment. But the worst thing they can say is no and you know they didn't for you. And in my case, they didn't say no either and

00:31:30.030 --> 00:31:39.810

Kelly Paxton: Sometimes we just get lucky. Sometimes you get the right boss who I don't know, they see that in new and they're willing to work with you too, because they see it in you.

00:31:40.530 --> 00:31:48.450

Chelsea Binns: Yes. Yeah, exactly. Um, so, you know, in retrospect it was it was a great move for certain

00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:50.730

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, absolutely. If you can work in a different job field this question i i'm gonna be fascinated to hear if you could work in a different job field, what would it be

00:32:01.500 --> 00:32:11.430

Chelsea Binns: You know, that's a great question because for so long. I thought there was nothing else that I really wanted to do except what I'm doing. You know, I was sort of a born investigator and, you know, I just, I got lucky, though, because, you know, in the beginning, and this ties into the subject of your series. Right. As a female. I just didn't know what my options were, believe it or not, you know, a bunch of years ago, starting out in this field, it was more of a challenge. And there were less programs available.

And so even though I knew this is something that I wanted to do. I didn't know how feasible. It was to be honest, and I had a lot of people tell me along the way. You know people like high school guidance counselor, you know, the cyber, you know, just go into communications go into English go into. And there's nothing wrong with those fields, but I knew it wasn't for me, you know. So I felt like there was a lot of resistance along the way.

 But this is what I always knew I wanted to do. However, I will say that I'm I'm uniquely fascinated by medicine and I think if I had a second life I would pursue a medical doctor

00:33:22.470 --> 00:33:24.840

Kelly Paxton: Oh, that is so interesting. That's like the last thing I could do, because I kind of faint at the sight of blood so

00:33:30.060 --> 00:33:41.820

Chelsea Binns: Um, yes, it's not definitely not for everyone, and I've realized over the years that I do have the temperament for it. I don't, I'm not. I don't get queasy or with any of the documentaries. I've seen and I watch a lot of medical related things and read about it and you know in the little free time that I have, but it's more of a hobby.

00:33:54.660 --> 00:34:12.510

Kelly Paxton: Well, this leads me to a whole new question. You're saying that. Is there any favorite like series, binging that you have that's like crime or medical crime because I've just started, Your Honor, with Bryan Cranston and it's like I am. So on the edge of my seat so is

There some sort of series that you and we're watching The Sopranos we've been we're on like we've got like three more to finish it, and

00:34:21.210 --> 00:34:21.990

Chelsea Binns: Ah,

00:34:22.080 --> 00:34:23.520

Kelly Paxton: Do you have any other any binge worthy series that you would recommend?

00:34:28.860 --> 00:34:39.450

Chelsea Binns: Ah, that's a great question. You know, I will say it's sort of a less recent one. But I'm a huge Forensic Files fan.

Yes, that's definitely one of my favorite shows of all time, because I think it's, you know, I love the cases that they develop and they're also short they're half hour long so you you know there's if you only have a half hour, you know it's it's a nice quick fix. And they cover such unique cases involving you know

 Some of the lot of the technology that we're seeing today, right, like the DNA technologies. And then, and then some so I think it's really exciting. And I always learn something new from that also

00:35:16.050 --> 00:35:28.320

Chelsea Binns: I am a huge Unsolved Mysteries fan. That's also one of my favorite shows, and I don't believe it's Netflix, but I believe it's Amazon prime has the originals. And there's many, many seasons of that you know the original series with Robert Stack from the 80s, 90s and then they revived it now. And so now there's a whole new unsolved mysteries.

 And that's on Netflix and so it's still good little different than, than the original but still good. More of a modern take and what I like about those is, you know, again, hence the name Unsolved Mysteries, you know, these, these cases that I always find fascinating, you know, the ones that don't seem to have an ending and some that ended up having one and many times it's not the ending that we would have expected. And you know, I think that's one of the great you know fascinating things about being an investigator to right so that's perhaps the reason why I like it so much. So I would say those are my, to my two favorites.

00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:43.590

Kelly Paxton: That's so funny. So I have a new question for the podcast, because I think we're gonna have like, what's your binge TV or binge series that you like, then this goes along with it because I just did a course yesterday fraud and pop culture. And it's a new course that I've done. And so I was picking through movies. Do you have a favorite like white collar crime movie.

00:36:58.020 --> 00:37:06.180

Kelly Paxton: There's a lot of them. Shockingly, as I was doing my research for this presentation. I was shocked at how many there are, like,

00:37:06.240 --> 00:37:08.250

Chelsea Binns: This Catch Me if You Can count.

00:37:10.260 --> 00:37:13.380

Kelly Paxton: And actually that was the favorite on the webinar yesterday was

And that was three out of four said Catch Me If You Can. That's so funny. Okay.

00:37:21.990 --> 00:37:22.320

Kelly Paxton: I was

00:37:22.740 --> 00:37:25.590

Chelsea Binns: One of them is, I think, that one was really well done.

And I also think that, you know, it really did depict somewhere some real situations. Yeah, that we see.

To this day, right, common elements of fraud.

00:37:39.150 --> 00:37:46.590

Kelly Paxton: Well, and, you know, it's funny when I was doing this research. Okay, so you have Leo DiCaprio in that. And then you also have him in the Wolf of Wall Street. But then you have Christian Bale in the American Hustle and you have him in The Big Short, so it's like these characters these actors kind of have this sort of, I don't know. I like one of my favorites. I will watch it no matter what is The Big Short

00:38:04.380 --> 00:38:06.330

Kelly Paxton: And shockingly, The Big Short

It's like production budget was only 50 million and it made like 150 million. The Wolf of Wall Street, which is, you know, based on Greg Coleman that retired FBI agent and that is Martin Scorsese's most profitable movie.

 And a huge amount of it came from overseas. I actually haven't watched The Wolf of Wall Street, because I was kinda like I don't like

 I don't like that. Jordan Belfort and, you know, it's just, I'm gonna say, you know, just grossness with yeah I'm, I'm gonna have to watch it, but I did not realize it was his most financially successful movie. So did you watch The Wolf of Wall Street.

00:38:49.980 --> 00:38:53.250

Chelsea Binns: Wow, I did not.

00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:54.000

Kelly Paxton: Yeah. So I'm gonna have to watch it this weekend, I think.

00:38:56.550 --> 00:38:58.020

Chelsea Binns: Yes, me too.

00:38:58.260 --> 00:39:05.820

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, yeah, it was fascinating. So these are my some of my new questions for the podcast is just like fraud and pop culture and what you like so.

00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:08.730

Chelsea Binns: I was too busy watching Forensic Files.

00:39:10.380 --> 00:39:17.790

Kelly Paxton: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So What haven't I asked you that you want to get out to the audience is, we kind of wrap this up today.

00:39:19.020 --> 00:39:30.900

Chelsea Binns: You're well again to your theme. You know, I, I'm so appreciative and, you know, for being on this podcast and I really, I'm so proud of all the Great Women in Fraud. I think we are, you know, such an amazing group and we're growing, you know, by the day. And I think that's incredible. You know, when I first started out in my advanced education and criminal justice. You know, I was one of the only in many of my classes I was one of the only females. And now you know that I'm teaching those classes, things have changed considerably, you know, I'll see lots of women in my classes and night. So I see the difference over time. In the demographic of who gets involved in our field and it just makes me very proud. And I know it's not easy. And I don't even think it's easy today. Despite all the advances and everything that's happened over the years. I still think it's it's challenging, it's still a more challenging career path for women. But you know, it's a worthwhile one and I'm glad you know for everyone that has stuck with it like I have an if I and inspired you know someone through my work or my teachings to continue along that path. You know, I'm Again, I feel like that's my calling. And I'm so proud, you know, to have been a part of that. But I, you know, kudos to you for celebrating all of us, including yourself by hosting this podcast and for everything that you do because it makes a big difference.

00:40:59.550 --> 00:41:07.590

Kelly Paxton: I'm I'm absolutely honored and Kim Green and Pursuit Magazine, she interviewed me for like a little, you know, a little thing. And she goes, so is the real reason you do a podcast. So you get to talk to cool people. And I was like, You got me. I'm just, you know, I, in no one's turned me down. I've had one person who's pushed me off, just because of their schedule, but no one has turned me down to be on the podcast.

 You know, I haven't reached out to Frank Abagnale. I have met him in person and I know he's gonna be on. Um, but, like, people want to help. And I think they see it as helping other people so they want to continue to do it.

00:41:39.090 --> 00:41:51.240

Chelsea Binns: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And if any of your listeners ever have, you know, opportunities for new whether it's women or for men or anyone any opportunities in the fraud space. We're investigative space and they're looking for great people, you know, to definitely reach out to us because we always know great students or recent graduates that are interested in getting a start in the field and you know I love to make those connections.

00:42:07.200 --> 00:42:20.250

Kelly Paxton: Absolutely. I think we'd like to sisters from different mother, the same mother or whatever, that's silly saying, and so but Chelsea, thank you so, so much for coming on, I will have all the links in the show notes. Go out and buy her books and  Look forward to her speaking at more ACFE global events. Thank you Chelsea.

00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:27.630

Chelsea Binns: Thank you, Kelly.