Great Women In Fraud

Episode 25 Amanda "Jo" Erven, CPA, CIA, CFE, cTQA

March 23, 2021 Kelly Paxton, CFE Episode 25
Show Notes Transcript

Welcome to another week of Great Women in Fraud.  I am delighted to have my friend and colleague Jo Erven as our guest.  Jo and I would probably never had met if we didn’t both leave jobs that weren’t aligned with our personal ethics.  Things are meant to happen. I truly believe that. Jo is not just those titles but she is an author, course creator, trainer, and consultant.  It’s hard to keep up with her!  And she is all about changing the perception of auditors from just being “bad cops.” You will love this episode because you learn about squirrels and ethics and is sunscreen an eligible FSA expense. Stay tuned for the answer.  Let’s go.

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Kelly Paxton: Here we have another great woman in fraud, and I am so excited to have Jo with us because Jo of Amanda Jo Erven, we have, like so many sort of crossovers and because everyone knows how much I love auditors and Jo is an amazing auditor, but then she's got the fraud and then she also has National Speakers Association, so I just think that like we were meant to be.  So I'm going to hand it over to you, Jo for you to give your business what you love to do just kind of a you know a bit of an intro.


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Amanda Jo Erven: Sure, and I would agree with that I love how our paths have crossed because we basically met on LinkedIn which is both of our favorite platforms.

Of course, and then we got to meet in person at one of our last in-person events that we had for this speakers association so I'm like still daydreaming about conferences like that, at this point.

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Amanda Jo Erven: But yes, I go by, Jo my full name is Amanda Jo Ervin on LinkedIn and I started my business about three years ago.

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Amanda Jo Erven: And it's called Audit Consulting Education LLC and I know that's a mouthful so I call it ACE for short, but then my son says why did you name your company after a hardware store mom?


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Amanda Jo Erven: And so, then, of course, I like say the full thing again but anyway, but those are the three wings of my business so audit is where I come from it's my passion. So I still do what I call internal audit strategy work going into clients and companies and really making their internal audit group, more effective and more valuable to the organization that's what's really important to me, I don't want them to be the bad cop anymore so it's all about changing that perception of auditors.


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Amanda Jo Erven: And then my consulting business really is, I am now fully invested in what I'm calling culture consulting so as I Kelly will probably let me selfishly plug. Published my book on ethics and ethics and culture and really even teaching auditors, how to audit culture has been such a passion of mine that.


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Amanda Jo Erven: You know I've started going into organizations and saying you know here's some things to really improve your culture.


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Amanda Jo Erven: And whether that's monitoring things like hotlines or surveys getting that feedback from employees that's really my latest and greatest passion.


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Amanda Jo Erven: And then the last one of my business is probably my favorite and where we cross paths is my training and speaking and education.


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Amanda Jo Erven: I'm teaching two courses at the higher ED level right now so I'm teaching principles of accounting so back to debits and credits for me.


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Amanda Jo Erven: at university here in Denver, where I am so I love that education side of things, I love teaching and training, and I think that allows us to meet so many great people in our business in our field so that's a little bit about me.


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Kelly Paxton: Well yeah so, as I said, I mean you hit on everything it's I live on it, because you always want to make things better, and then the whole culture and tone at the top whistleblowing you had said that you had just listened to a previous episode by Jackie Garrick on whistleblowers and then the education like. I never thought I would be an educator, but I am an educator you are an educator and I think it's my favorite sort of thing as much like you, we keep it fun.


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Amanda Jo Erven: Yes, yes, I always you know I I always start my CPE conferences by saying I sat on the other side of the table for the last you know 17 years and I'm you know I'm a CPA.


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Amanda Jo Erven: Like you, a CFE, I'm a CIA, I have to have that continuing ED and I dreaded some of those continuing ED classes, so it was like my goal in life, to make those better and make people want to come back to me.

For that continuing ED credit so yeah that's that is probably my favorite part two, and I, like you know, instead of saying a trainer or a speaker I love that term like you used it educator I just that sounds just so good to me so.


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Kelly Paxton: I totally stuck my foot and that the other day was talking to a chapter about me coming to ethics presentation and you know, I was. I wasn't driving somewhere, but I didn't have LinkedIn up in front of me, and I said, you know I promise my ethics, will not be like a lawyers and say it depends, and the guy says I'm a lawyer.

Okay well let's not count on that one. But, but much like you, is like you know if it's memorable.

If it's fun it's memorable. You are not going to remember you know the boring sort of stories you're going to remember the crazy sort of stories that you can't make up but they happen in real life hey.


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Amanda Jo Erven: I always say those unlike you know you can't make this stuff up, but it makes for great ethics training material right.


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Kelly Paxton:  Okay, so this is one thing right off the top that I will forever associate you with is. let's talk about squirrels.


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Amanda Jo Erven: Okay, so you know that I always say like I had been a tattletale since birth, so I always say like I've had this passion for Ethics probably since I was really really young and I in fact  I say I wasn't a tattletale, but it really short whistleblower back then that's how I describe myself. But you know my son, I hope that I'm instilling these same values in him and it's hard to see that right as they're growing up and.


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Amanda Jo Erven: So when he was actually in the first grade his class was asked to draw doing the right thing. And I remember walking into the hallway it is school back and we could go into school and seeing all these drawings from these young kids of what they saw as doing the right thing and my son's was. If a squirrel is falling catch it and now of course he spelled the word catch wrong, it was CA ch he was missing in T but everybody's always impressed that he actually spelled the world's word squirrel right.


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Amanda Jo Erven: But that's actually how I start, one of the chapters in my ethics book is you know, we need to get back to seeing things as at the, you know as a basics at the basic level and you know I actually go through the different ethics philosophies that there are in life.

 And I sum them up a recording to the squirrel scenario, so you know those things about ethics that. You find really boring, if I were to sit here and tell you I'm going to tell you about the five ethics philosophies that exists you're going to go snore fast right.

But if I put up this picture that my son drew of a squirrel following out of a tree, and I say you know in this scenario. The person would catch it because that's what the best thing to do is are. In this scenario, the person would catch it and feed it to people, because they think that's, the best thing to do, you know and so just going through the different philosophies that way I have found.


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Amanda Jo Erven: Just to be more fun for everyone it's more fun, for me, I get to brag about my kid and it's more fun for audiences because they don't have to just listen to the textbook they get you know that actual kind of let's put this into context to understand it so.


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Kelly Paxton: Absolutely, so I mean that's The thing is, like if we give these sort of big high faluting scenarios are is the average person going to relate to that no but like how many parents are relating to you know catching a squirrel.


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Kelly Paxton: Just catch it.


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Kelly Paxton: Just do it just catch it like.


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Amanda Jo Erven: Talking about things like you know I've had people come up to me after training and we talked about like one of the philosophies being the social contract theory and now. You know, in my example there is Benjamin my son with all his friends, they get on the playground, and they decide whether they all want to collectively catch the squirrel or not and it's this kind of more Groupthink decision, and so, then it leads you down these awesome conversations about you know blind spots to our ethics and peer pressure and group think and that's the stuff you know I know you and I love that I mean I teach behavioral ethics right like I am not.


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Amanda Jo Erven: I will straight out tell you, if you want my CPE course it's not regulatory ethics, it is behavioral because that's the part I like right that's the good stuff if you ask me.


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Kelly Paxton: Well, I think it's the good stuff because, like okay regulatory ethics I'm going to say you know if you do this so if you do X, Y happens, whereas when it's behavioral you're like.

 If I do X or if I don't do X or if I do Y and like it, we can relate to that when something, and this goes to you and I both are like huge behavioral science behavioral econ fans is that short in the fast thinking okay so quick and slow fast and slow thinking is it turns out the slower thinking is more ethical. Yeah because you need just kind of stop and think about things, instead of just like I mean our quick sort of we're just going to do it, you know just doesn't it doesn't work, a lot of times.


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Amanda Jo Erven: Right yeah and I think that you know there's something to be said to following your gut but there's also there is something to be said to be going through, I mean, I know, one of my favorite ethics book.


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Amanda Jo Erven: Books by Blanchard and Peele goes through the ethics check and I talked about that in my book to you know that is it legal Is it fair and balanced, and will you be happy with yourself at the end of the day. And you know that just that quick three question ethics check, you know that's what you're talking about right it's the Stop and think about it, and I think that a lot of unfortunate things happen in businesses because executives don't think they have time to stop and do that. They just want to make those quick decisions they're so focused on the short term, instead of long term or profits over purpose or however you want to say it, I could say 100 ways I'm like values, need to be over victories, you know we've got so many ways to say that, but that's the problem today really is that that quick two quick of thinking when it comes to our ethics.


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Kelly Paxton: yeah yeah because um you know aren't gut isn't right all the time.

 yeah, it is not right, all the time um so and you just said something that.

 I love the really short whistleblower I again it's a vision like having this sort of vision is so incredibly important to have.

That kind of vision again it's not this up in the cloud sort of like well if this were to happen, but if you can have a vision of someone you and I have also like we've done through your book club, we did fraud and pop culture.


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Kelly Paxton: And why is fraud and pop culture so there's so much of it, because everyone loves fraud.


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Amanda Jo Erven: Right yeah and I, you know and everybody. You know they want, they have to have ethics right for their CPE they know they need ethics, but I think that's why they love someone like you or me doing it because we do bring that fraud aspect into it and I always start now by differentiating between ethics and fraud and I don't know if we talked about I'm sure we've talked about this, but I've had so many people say explain to me.

The difference like, why do we have both courses, because you talk a lot about frauds and your ethics course, and I said, well, let me, let me just explain it to you this way that.

Every fraud is unethical every fraud that happens out there is unethical, but not all unethical behavior is fraud and what I like to do is teach and train people and auditors to see. That unethical behavior before it turns to fraud right, we want to get back to the basics and get it, this is about my whole stance on teaching and about life in general health life choices is about being proactive and you know that's just what I stand for and when it comes to ethics and culture it's like we can catch some of that unethical behavior.


If we start opening our eyes to it before it even becomes fraud before our you know our companies are on the front page of the paper, and so I always like to differentiate they're so intertwined.


But there's that difference that I want to bring everybody back to the ethics piece of it, because I think that happens, first, you know, in a lot of instances so yeah.


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Kelly Paxton: yeah and you know, unfortunately, a lot of people don't get rewarded and we don't have to be rewarded, you know, in a financial sense, or whatever you don't get rewarded for being ethical.

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Kelly Paxton: People see that, and then it makes them less hesitant yeah um and we never know what someone's actually going through right.


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Amanda Jo Erven: yeah absolutely and you know I saw that gap, now that you mentioned that.


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Amanda Jo Erven: Another selfish plug for the book is why there are five chapters on organizational ethics. You know the book called becoming the everyday ethicist so the overall goal is to get you personally to become what I call the everyday emphasis meaning.

You don't compromise your integrity at any cost, whether you walk out of the store and forget to pay for that $2 item or whatever it is, I want you to think about your ethics and all those little everyday things.

But I start the first part of the book is about personal ethics, then I get into leadership and ethics, because we're all leaders that our own way, so it's just kind of an expansion of personal ethics, but then the bulk the last half of the book is organizational ethics.

it's it focuses on the things not to do so, it, it has that chapter on ethical organizations, but then it talks about how do we set our values, how do we set our priorities, how do we focus on all the right stakeholders.

And then, how do we build those reward systems around things like ethics and ethics programs, and I think.

You know that I've gotten a lot of positive feedback on because there isn't a lot of guidance out there on how could you do that, how could you reward ethical behavior so it's not that complicated you start looking for it right, this is about opening our eyes to what's happening and watching those customer service REPS that actually do something that's better for the customer than it is for the company and you reward that behavior.


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Amanda Jo Erven: I know, in one of your previous episodes you mentioned Wells Fargo and I always pick on Wells Fargo because obviously they were incentivizing their employees.

You know, to open more customer accounts that whole eight is great thing you know that had nothing to do with the customers and they weren't incentivizing the right thing bottom line there so anyway soapbox but.


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Kelly Paxton: Those so funny because you and I both are going to be on Rob Berry's new podcasts and I even said Okay, I have a soapbox for fraud, and I have a soapbox for Ethics the soapbox for fraud being gambling is a pink flag that's just kind of I feel like it's just so easy.

And then the soapbox for ethics is pay attention to whistleblowers. And like I implore people to pay attention to whistleblowers.

 And as the fraud hashtag queen it's like one of my hashtags is whistleblowers are heroes and you have a bit of an experience as a whistleblower.

 Do you want to talk about that?


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Amanda Jo Erven: You know it's funny because, as I listened to your episode on whistleblowing it was Jackie right.


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Amanda Jo Erven: At the very end of her podcast she talks about all the different types of whistleblowers out there, and she got into a little bit of kind of like.

 not really in detail, but thinking about like the me to movement and sexual harassment and gender discrimination, and I say you know my whistle blowing what I would consider was more something along those lines than it was you know, a real fraud or something like that going on to me, I consider myself a whistleblower because I was able to stand up and say your values don't match my values and I'm out the door and that's what I think my proud moment is and whether you want to call that a whistleblower or not. You know that's my story and I'm sticking to it right, I mean and that's why I love to teach ethics, because everybody thinks their ethical right, I always have that line, no one is ethical as we think we are and everybody goes whoa yes, I yeah.


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Amanda Jo Erven: um but the bottom line is we're not but we think we have these values, but I want you to center yourself on those values, and then I want you to inspect your organization's values and your leaders values and the people around you and do they match because if they don't in my mind you're never going to be truly happy in your life you're never going to truly succeed.

And there's just this you know I'm teaching principles of accounting there's this matching principle that needs to happen right on when it comes to values and that's really what.

You know what I that's just really, what I want to impress upon people and my second real stance that I have just finally I feel like gotten into words.

Is that it's not A to Z for me it's A to V it's connecting actions to values, and I think because there's this disconnect between what people think.

They do and how they behave and then they act contrary to that it's just it's bringing it all together, we need to match our actions to our values and so that's my new Maybe my new tagline will call it that.


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Kelly Paxton: I love the actions to values, and you know you know my story, I was retaliated against and I mentor and I know you do a lot of young professionals and we were I was talking about this with Rob was um you always have to have a walk away fund I call it the FU fund.

And I'm I've never like in my early 20s I didn't have the actual financial wherewithal to do it, but I think you can have the attitude to do it. It makes it easier if you do have the financial you know backing behind you, to be able to do it.


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Kelly Paxton: In my heart of heart I'm I believe people want to do the right thing, but then they think about you know their kid at school, their mortgage there and then they go down the sort of I'm going to say squirrel hole.


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Kelly Paxton: Being able to rationalize and justify that behavior.


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Amanda Jo Erven: yeah, and I mean you bring me to the question I always ask at the end of my training, which is, would you quit your job, before you quit your own ethics.

And you know, I think that in itself, you know we don't want you to give up, I want you to try, I want you to blow the whistle right, I mean this isn't about.


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Amanda Jo Erven: Just walking away and letting that organization fail, or any of that it's, though, that you do have to take care of yourself at the end of the day, I'm a firm believer in self-care.

And I talked about being pro self to organizations which is proactive and selfish you know, at some point you do need to decide. When you're not going to compromise your own ethics and you are ready to take that step and you know it's kind of like your fund. But it's a mental fund that I want people to have I want them to feel so strong in their values that they are mentally prepared to walk away. And then you know, obviously I am a firm believer that things will come I didn't know that you know, I was going to leave my corporate job, three years ago I didn't know and so, but the universe supported me.


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Amanda Jo Erven: And I was able to successfully replace my internal audit director income doing this because it's my passion and this is what I love to do and so.Yeah I hope I know that's a hindrance for some people, but I hope that the universe always helps out when it needs to that's my stance.


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Kelly Paxton: I totally believe that I mean if you were still I'm going to say an internal audit somewhere I don't think we would have ever met.


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Amanda Jo Erven: that's true.


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Kelly Paxton: yeah and you know the worst day of my life led to you know the work that I get to do now and it's so much more rewarding and also when you do get and you have some great quotes on the back of.


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Kelly Paxton: Your book that ethics presented in a no nonsense refreshing and fun way best ethics presentation I've ever attended do you like I'm going to say from you know corporate America, did you ever get up best ethics presentation I know.


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Kelly Paxton: I'm in this leads to one of the questions what advice would you give someone wanting to pursue a career similar to yours? What would you tell them to do?


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Amanda Jo Erven: You know I am. Well, let's go back to LinkedIn you know I think when I'm when you are I meet someone we original we automatically search their LinkedIn right you look at what that looks like and anytime I meet someone I'm pretty open and honest and direct about saying you need to beef up that LinkedIn this is your persona online and especially from a professional community way and I teach students and I asked my students every Semester to raise their hand how many of them have LinkedIn and it's usually about half.


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Amanda Jo Erven: And they're just they're not at that point yet and I'm like we're going to get you there by the end of the Semester that's my add on to my course because.


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Amanda Jo Erven: it's so important and critical and so, especially if you want to go out on your own like someone like you or I you've got to get out there and you've got.


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Amanda Jo Erven: you've got to get out there and present yourself, the best way possible, so you know investing the time and having someone help you, with your LinkedIn or just really looking at other peoples and mimicking it's as easy as that right.


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Amanda Jo Erven: At being an imposter who use imposter syndrome and you know copy someone that you admire and use that as a stepping ground so you know I think really working on your presence and how you present yourself to the Community is huge.

 You know the other things you know if someone is looking to go out on their own, you know I I say make friends with.


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Amanda Jo Erven: Anyone or in your community that could help you any way I always say find out the best and the brightest recruiters in your town, you know if you're looking for consulting work or investigations or anything like that. A lot of times people pick up the phone and call those recruiting firms and then, if you're on their speed dial.


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Amanda Jo Erven: They know you know who the expert in that area is, and so one of the first things I did when I went out on my own.


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Amanda Jo Erven: When I was really taking on consulting clients was worked with a ton of good recruiters here in the Denver area, and those are relationships that are ongoing and.


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Amanda Jo Erven: So I love that I look at it kind of is in corporate America, I always told auditors to get to know your HR department, if you want to audit culture.


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Amanda Jo Erven: You know, those are the people in the front lines talking to the employees, doing the exit interviews looking at the complaints and.


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Amanda Jo Erven: And you know, and that that relationship is a lot of times very strained so think about those people and those relationships that you could build that are kind of out of the box from what you would normally do and I guarantee those will help your career.


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Amanda Jo Erven: Whether you're in corporate or out on your own so.


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Kelly Paxton: I'm and I'm just gonna like spitballing here right now, I think, women are a little bit better at that on LinkedIn also in social media than men, because we can be more vulnerable, I mean I get a couple of.


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Kelly Paxton: You know LinkedIn messages a week asking for guidance, there was a young girl in the Mid East and you know, should I do my CFE and I was like absolutely do your CFE.


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Kelly Paxton: And she's like well I don't have any experience yet and I'm like okay go look at local chapters there's a ton of virtual stuff right now, and you know don't hesitate to ask me and then so she thanked me profusely and all it took was me to say you know what also keep me posted.


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Amanda Jo Erven: That way again, you know even after presentations I've gotten that.


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Amanda Jo Erven: Feedback of you know you're the first presenter that I've felt like I could email you right after and ask your advice and I can't tell you how many questions I have.


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Amanda Jo Erven: answered about where do I even start with audit and culture, how do I convince my boss, you know, to let me audit culture like just random questions that I feel so good that they feel comfortable.


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Amanda Jo Erven: You know, reaching out to me right after that and staying connected I have questions six months later and that's I love that stuff and that's why.


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Amanda Jo Erven: You know you're like me, I mean will give a link to our calendar, and you know if we have time for that kind of stuff and I think.


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Amanda Jo Erven: I think that's critical for being a good trainer in our space is it shows that we do care and we want to help and it's not just the our work together it's I want you to put this in practice and how I help you do that it's not just theory it's both you know so yeah.


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Kelly Paxton: That is that is so, which this goes to what's the best compliment you have ever received.


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Amanda Jo Erven: Oh well, you know, the one that you read best ethics presentation I've ever attended.


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Amanda Jo Erven: I actually have that on a like a four by six index card, because you know when we were in person, I gave like little cards to say, give me feedback I I preach.


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Amanda Jo Erven: That I want internal auditors to get feedback on how they're doing so, I have to practice what I preach.


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Amanda Jo Erven: And so I do it at it every Conference, and I still do online surveys, of course, but.


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Amanda Jo Erven: I saved that one, and now I actually took a picture of it and put it in my presentation, because I show it to audiences, and I say this is the bar that I've set for myself.


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Amanda Jo Erven: I want everybody to leave here saying this is the best ethics presentation they've ever attended.


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Amanda Jo Erven: And you know it's funny because a lot of times I'll get that feedback at the end, like you, reached you reached your goal like this was great or you know, but it gives them that talking point even to have that conversation after because.


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Amanda Jo Erven: I mean let's face it, a lot of people don't even want to take the time to put a comment in.


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Amanda Jo Erven: But if I say like this is what I'm holding myself to you know, this is, this is my challenge to myself, I want you to leave here like this it's kind of a conversation starter for them too, so I’d say I’d have to say that's number one because I keep using it all the time.


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Kelly Paxton: I just got that I just did one for an IIA chapter, and it was in my 15 years, this is by far the best ethics presentation I've ever attended and I just was like.


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Kelly Paxton: It was nothing for that person to do that, it was like you know 30 seconds of typing and I was glowing and it's what keeps us going, I mean again if you're an attendee and you really like it.


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Kelly Paxton: You know, do that if you're an attendee and you don't like it I'm going to say you can say this didn't hit home give a suggestion don't just say I didn't like her pink shirt.


00:28:16.380 --> 00:28:18.240

Kelly Paxton: Like you, something that's like.


00:28:18.630 --> 00:28:25.440

Kelly Paxton: Actually helpful because as trainers and educators, we want to improve all the time.


00:28:25.800 --> 00:28:26.760

Amanda Jo Erven: Absolutely, yes.


00:28:26.850 --> 00:28:37.140

Kelly Paxton: So yeah I'm like you know if you don't they say there's people either love you or hate you there's no money in the middle, if you hate me tell me how we can be better.


00:28:43.350 --> 00:28:44.220

Amanda Jo Erven: thought about that.


00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:55.740

Kelly Paxton: Oh, my God yeah we so the and I don't know this answer to you, even though you know we have talked so much we met in person, if you could work in a different job field What would it be.


00:28:56.790 --> 00:29:08.640

Amanda Jo Erven: Oh, I really like this question, I would be an interior designer if I was a completely different life when I was younger, I wanted to be an architect, and that kind of faded really quickly.


00:29:09.450 --> 00:29:22.200

Amanda Jo Erven: But then I went from outside of houses to inside of houses and it's you know I've moved 28 times in my life and I'm about to turn 40 I just told Kelly, this will tell everybody I'm pretty open about it.


00:29:23.520 --> 00:29:29.160

Amanda Jo Erven: I have not minded moving one bit, because it is just been a passion of mine.


00:29:29.490 --> 00:29:39.750

Amanda Jo Erven: To find new space by new homes for the things I love like it just my husband and I actually just bought the house we're in a year and a half ago and I we're still.


00:29:40.170 --> 00:29:44.430

Amanda Jo Erven: You know, finding the perfect spot for things but it just makes me happy in it.


00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:51.150

Amanda Jo Erven: You know I've had a lot of family members reach out for my health doing their own homes I've never done it professionally.


00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:58.170

Amanda Jo Erven: I have a few great friends that are amazing at it and I always say I would love your job, but in another world.


00:29:58.620 --> 00:30:09.450

Amanda Jo Erven: Maybe I would do that, so it may be in retirement I've always said, you know that's something I would just absolutely love to do stage homes or just go in and decorate for people so yep.

00:30:10.110 --> 00:30:12.870

Kelly Paxton: Honey because Tracy Coenen said she'd be a realtor.



00:30:13.620 --> 00:30:26.880

Kelly Paxton: I'm looking I'm doing I'm gonna do the zoom room radar and it's really good for you very, very good for you, if you cannot see my zoom room right now, because it's horrifying just I have books all over the place, but that.

00:30:28.080 --> 00:30:40.980

Kelly Paxton: yeah moving 28 times I hate moving with a passion like I love buying houses like literally I love buying houses, but I hate the physicality of movie and so, if I ever have to move again I'm just going to have you come cuz.


00:30:41.550 --> 00:30:51.060

Amanda Jo Erven: I will, and I would tell you I love packing too, because I make people really stuff I'm like we're not packing as if you don't want it your next home, so I am a huge.


00:30:51.450 --> 00:30:59.460

Amanda Jo Erven: I mean I'm volunteer for a lot of organizations, but I am a huge advocate of donate to those who need it, if you don't need it, if you don't want it.


00:30:59.760 --> 00:31:10.830

Amanda Jo Erven: You know my husband and I are pretty I would call us minimalist you know there's not stuff everywhere, but you know he's even taught me to you know help others that could use something more than I do so.


00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:17.220

Amanda Jo Erven: So I really challenge people I bet show hoarders kind of makes me crazy to be completely honest but.


00:31:19.110 --> 00:31:24.660

Amanda Jo Erven: I would challenge anybody, as I was packing and unpacking I do it on both ends so.


00:31:27.690 --> 00:31:36.780

Kelly Paxton: um what are some resources that you can give the Great Women in Fraud community that you just really used or you recommend.


00:31:38.430 --> 00:31:39.570

Amanda Jo Erven: Besides, you I.

00:31:40.800 --> 00:31:48.840

Amanda Jo Erven: anytime anybody asked me who to follow all, I would say is look at who's been on your podcast or you honestly, because those are the names I give.


00:31:49.680 --> 00:32:00.060

Amanda Jo Erven: So definitely all of those and then I'm going to use an answer, I know some of your other guests have used is is you know books are great.


00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:12.570

Amanda Jo Erven: You know, but they're as of a point in time, so I always keep that context, I mean you know, I have a CPE book club, I do about a book a month and I get jump on a webinar I've been doing this for three years and I give a CPE and I love that.


00:32:13.080 --> 00:32:29.670

Amanda Jo Erven: But what I realized, is it is point in time it's point in time, what the leadership philosophy of that person was in that at that point in time, and when I put together my own books, I tried to use a gazillion different books right because I wanted everybody spots in there.


00:32:30.750 --> 00:32:38.550

Amanda Jo Erven: I think, from a current standpoint is any newsletter any email in the morning that you can get you know I always tout.


00:32:39.120 --> 00:32:48.330

Amanda Jo Erven: Things like the morning brew because I think there it's witty and it gives you not only you know that stock market info but what's happening in the world today and.


00:32:48.990 --> 00:32:58.410

Amanda Jo Erven: Just bits and pieces and then I do the Forbes Daily Dozen I do the Forbes upturn, which is positive news which you don't get a lot, so I love that one.


00:32:58.950 --> 00:33:01.650

Amanda Jo Erven: Forbes women is also another one that's great.


00:33:02.100 --> 00:33:10.200

Amanda Jo Erven: New York Times I get them all and what I do is I've made it a habit and because everybody says, I get on all these lists and then I get overwhelmed and I.


00:33:10.500 --> 00:33:14.550

Amanda Jo Erven: You know I don't read them and I don't keep up and then you've got this inbox full of stuff right.


00:33:15.360 --> 00:33:25.500

Amanda Jo Erven: You know wake up 20 minutes earlier get up get your coffee and sit down and do it before you do anything else, and I will, I will say that changed my world.


00:33:25.800 --> 00:33:32.130

Amanda Jo Erven: And I haven't been doing that the entire three years I've been an entrepreneur, I felt very overwhelmed probably about the first year.


00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:34.980

Amanda Jo Erven: With how do I get all the information I need.


00:33:35.280 --> 00:33:46.650

Amanda Jo Erven: You know how do I know some of you know I got it let's be honest I’d go to ethics, training and people would be like have you heard of this latest college basketball fiasco and I’d be like, I have no idea what you're talking about.


00:33:47.370 --> 00:33:53.250

Amanda Jo Erven: Then I realized real quick I've got to get something every morning that's the source of what's happening.


00:33:53.940 --> 00:34:04.560

Amanda Jo Erven: And I did a study at 1.1 month there was 12 out of like 28 days that had one of the headlines was a fraud story or something to do with ethics right.


00:34:04.890 --> 00:34:11.430

Amanda Jo Erven: And so you know I realized how crucial this is to me and to being just current and up to date and.


00:34:12.120 --> 00:34:15.900

Amanda Jo Erven: So you know, whatever way you want to soak up that information.


00:34:16.290 --> 00:34:27.840

Amanda Jo Erven: find a way and then make it a habit and don't break that habit and that's something like I know if I missed that one morning I my day is not right, you know, so it just make it that important to you.


00:34:28.590 --> 00:34:42.780

Amanda Jo Erven: But I don't know that that's really the best of fraud resource specific its world events, current events, but sadly a lot of that is fraud, so I know it's a great place to start for resources.

00:34:43.530 --> 00:35:01.260

Kelly Paxton: Again with the whole Great Women in Fraud guests that we've had the lifelong learning, which includes staying on top of events yeah and you know a lot of people, I have a lot of social media and people are like Twitter oh my God Twitter I have gotten the best stories on Twitter.


00:35:01.560 --> 00:35:14.460

Kelly Paxton: Right I just like you know and I have a friend who whenever something happens in the neighborhood she's like get on Twitter and find out what's going on, but like I mean I do it also for resources and things like that, but um.


00:35:15.390 --> 00:35:20.700

Kelly Paxton: The staying current is so incredibly important, because the world is changing so incredibly fast yep.


00:35:20.850 --> 00:35:28.830

Amanda Jo Erven: Absolutely yeah and if you don't know I mean I think that's as a teacher as a trainer as an educator like we said, if you.


00:35:29.070 --> 00:35:41.910

Amanda Jo Erven: And I'm not embarrassed if I don't know something i'll fully admit you know I actually have not heard that yet tell me about it right, but I don't want to be in that position as much as possible, I want to be able to contribute to the conversation.


00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:49.560

Amanda Jo Erven: And you know, I think that is what differentiates people in this space is those that know what they're talking about.

00:35:49.800 --> 00:36:01.890

Amanda Jo Erven: or ones that stand up and read a PowerPoint slide and you know it's they're not even owning them and material or caring about it, and so I think that's a huge differentiator in our space.


00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:22.500

Kelly Paxton: yeah absolutely so um this is kind of goes to cove it and, as we wrap up bingeing like Okay, you and I did front and pop culture it doesn't have to be fraud related, but what are you bingeing or what what's in your cue for what you're gonna be watching listening reading.


00:36:23.040 --> 00:36:31.680

Amanda Jo Erven: Well um I, so I listened to one of your other podcasts and they talked about the movie The Other Guys is that what it's called.


00:36:32.220 --> 00:36:44.370

Amanda Jo Erven: I told you, the beginning of this, I put that one on my list, and I have watched so many new Fraud documentaries, since we did Fraud and Pop culture like mcmillions right I.


00:36:44.730 --> 00:36:55.140

Amanda Jo Erven: know about that we talked a lot about that one mark wahlberg did that documentary on HBO I think it's on netflix now to the Challenger the final flight.


00:36:55.620 --> 00:37:08.850

Amanda Jo Erven: You know at almost every ethics book out there, talks about the Challenger and the ethical dilemma, and I don't think a lot of the world knows about that and the decisions that were made and that it's only for.


00:37:09.450 --> 00:37:18.300

Amanda Jo Erven: Four episodes and I always tell everybody stick to the last one, because you will be amazed at the ethical rationalizations that come to life and.


00:37:19.140 --> 00:37:24.360

Amanda Jo Erven: Just oh I just It gives me chills thinking about just the entire thing I really liked that one.


00:37:24.870 --> 00:37:40.590

Amanda Jo Erven: And, on a personal note, I just started the Queen's Gambit and I know that one was all the rage, a few months ago and I'm like super excited to I'm like 30 minutes into the first episode so I'm going to probably bingeing that one here, and the next few days so.


00:37:40.980 --> 00:37:50.250

Kelly Paxton: that's so funny we watched it as a family and my husband adar just made him a chessboard and it's beautiful but it all came from the queen's gambit.


00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:53.970

Amanda Jo Erven: play already.


00:37:54.480 --> 00:38:04.530

Kelly Paxton: I need to fraud, my husband bought online via FC the pieces for the chess game his card got hacked so I like.


00:38:07.590 --> 00:38:08.250

Kelly Paxton: That angel.


00:38:08.430 --> 00:38:10.590

Amanda Jo Erven: Everything ties to throw in some way or another.


00:38:13.380 --> 00:38:17.460

Kelly Paxton: So what happened, I asked you that you want to leave our amazing audience with.


00:38:19.020 --> 00:38:24.600

Amanda Jo Erven: My favorite thing to share is probably my personal motto, and I know, sometimes you get to that question.

00:38:25.230 --> 00:38:31.560

Amanda Jo Erven: But my motto is good things come to those who wait, but don't you deserve better than good.


00:38:32.160 --> 00:38:39.840

Amanda Jo Erven: And I you know my again my personal stance on life is that be as proactive as possible and know.


00:38:40.110 --> 00:38:51.450

Amanda Jo Erven: That you don't have to settle for good that you can keep going for great and whether that's at a new organization or that starting your own business or whatever, that is just keep.


00:38:51.900 --> 00:39:03.360

Amanda Jo Erven: Really aspiring towards that greatness and don't just stop it at good and don't wait I you know I know that there's all sorts of quotes you could read out there about how patience is the key.


00:39:03.750 --> 00:39:11.100

Amanda Jo Erven: I think patience is great up into a point, but I think we have to all go after what we want, and I really.


00:39:11.370 --> 00:39:24.030

Amanda Jo Erven: try to get again auditors or any professionals to just not settle and really not wait for the right moment just go out there and get it and get what you deserve so that's what i'd love to leave your audience with today.

00:39:24.870 --> 00:39:34.620

Kelly Paxton: That is that is so so perfect and then the last question is what was the last thing you googled before we got on this zoom Do you remember, the last thing.


00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:36.270

Amanda Jo Erven: And I look.


00:39:36.420 --> 00:39:37.620

Kelly Paxton: back now, you can look.


00:39:37.830 --> 00:39:48.630

Amanda Jo Erven: Here theory, let me let's get the real facts here um you're gonna laugh at this is sunscreen approved for hsa so.


00:39:49.140 --> 00:39:51.060

Amanda Jo Erven: I was standing at Walgreens.


00:39:51.360 --> 00:40:06.000

Amanda Jo Erven: Trying to decide, as I was buying a prescription, I think, pay for prescription, can I buy this sunscreen that's sitting like right next to the desk so I apparently googled whether that was approved on my hsa account so.


00:40:06.330 --> 00:40:06.750

Kelly Paxton: Well, is.


00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:11.940

Amanda Jo Erven: It is, it is, it says every sunscreen over the counter sunscreen is so.


00:40:15.330 --> 00:40:21.960

Amanda Jo Erven: I know I thought it was great a great answer to because we're I'm in Denver Colorado and our weather can change like that.


00:40:22.170 --> 00:40:36.390

Amanda Jo Erven: And so we were snowing a couple days ago, and now it's going to be 70 this weekend so, hence my sunscreen I'm looking forward to some outside time and I was able to buy it through my hsa so there's a lot there.


00:40:36.510 --> 00:40:41.430

Kelly Paxton: That is the auditor accountant with ethical person oh my gosh.


00:40:41.610 --> 00:40:57.210

Kelly Paxton: yeah i'll put in the show notes, where we can find you you guys reach out to Jo online and everything, and I thank you again so much, I mean I am lucky I get to talk to you all the time, but you know reach out to Jo because she's amazing just not on a Tuesday or Thursday.

00:40:58.500 --> 00:41:03.240

Amanda Jo Erven: Thursday night at least right now but yeah Thank you Kelly so much for having me.


Did you know sunscreen is an eligible expense?  I didn’t. Isn’t Jo awesome?  I am so honored to have her as my friend and colleague.  The next time you look at squirrels I think you will think about her and her son.  Be sure and get her book.  It is a great book that is fun and practical and not filled with boring attorney ethics including it depends. Also, reach out to Jo on LinkedIn.  Thank you again for your time.