Intro: It is Episode 26 and we have a Great Guy in Fraud today. Alexander Hall and I met via you guessed it LinkedIn. He was posting some great content, we have a lot of shared connections and I took a deeper dive into his background. He is a reformed fraudster. What was his path to becoming reformed? Why is it that the only 2 reformed fraudsters on GWIF are men? I do have a female pink collar criminal coming so stay tuned. I asked Alexander to come on because he posted about his view on money. I think his daughter will be proud he is a guest today. There are some listeners out there who might not like giving oxygen to a reformed fraudster. This is where you decide if you want to listen or not. I personally learn from everyone and I want to know the reasons they got started. Also, I love checklists but I never thought of fraudsters liking checklists. I found this pretty fascinating. so Let’s get started.
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Kelly Paxton: We are here today with I'm going to see a Great Man in Fraud. Alexander Hall, who is a reformed fraudster but he's a little bit different than like Tom Hughes in the past he's more on I'm going to say the E-commerce, card not present. I would say scarier type of fraud, for me, because embezzlement is just money here money there. Where is this type of fraud is oh my God you're hundreds of hours trying to get your identity back, but Alexander I want you to explain in your terms and you've got great terms. Your background and how you become reformed.
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Alexander Hall: Okay, so um well first off it was about 14 years ago now, and I started off, I was introduced to fraud, through drugs is how a lot of people in Las Vegas the gray area between drugs and fraud gets muddled so when I found out how easy it was to make some money that's what I that's what I got into so did that started off by doing a low level things like buying stolen information on the web on the dark net and the dark Web.
And then filling in the blanks of these checkout forms by following these the checkout by following the carnival sites lists that are available on the dark Web.
You know there's good success there it's nothing there's nothing really wrong with that with a from a process perspective because you can always buy 100 numbers and do it again, but quickly I realized that that just wasn't for me having stuff shipped where you're going having to constantly look for new houses. The risk the success rate all these different things compiled to just tell me that this was not worth my time so I'm quickly moved on from there.
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Alexander Hall: To more sophisticated methods in my eyes and then controlled data, so I would work with these drug dealers in the drug addicts as well as low level what I call street level criminals in order to go collect information that wasn't then sold on the dark web, it was information that was then just compiled within my operation. So I'd have access to all this information, and then I learned how to leverage it between payment information identity, information and system knowledge, the three core pillars of an effective fraudsters operation.
You learn where to use what information and when it comes to that that's when a whole range of methods get become it becomes fruitful because knowing that you can generate a credit card number and go use it over here, but it won't work over there.
Well, that's fine you're learning that it doesn't work, but now you know that you need to use more sophisticated numbers more fleshed out pieces of payment information so that continued and continued and then at the end of my career.
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Alexander Hall: Or what brought forth the end of my criminal career was my wife and I finding out that we were pregnant with my first daughter my only daughter, and then.
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Alexander Hall: My wife laid down the law, she said, look clean up your act turn yourself in on your outstanding charges, none of which were for fraud, this is for drug charges turn yourself in clean up your act, be a dad be a husband let's go so I did just that and yeah that was that was in 2017 and then 2018 I started my first gig in fraud prevention, my first six months of operation were worth $1.2 million to the company, I worked for.
And then, well then COVID hit and in March march of 2020 my position was eliminated and I've been busted but for Dispute Defense ever since.
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Kelly Paxton: that's awesome yeah COVID it has affected all of us so much, but I wouldn't have thought yeah and any industry can be affected, including.
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Kelly Paxton: Fraud Prevention, I mean absolutely fraud prevention so and we had messaged you so there before on Linkedin about money and that's kind of what I wanted to talk to you about money and how it affected. You and like there's a guy Nathan Mueller who grew up in a always felt poor did you grow up feeling poor like what is, what is your, what is your thoughts about money.
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Alexander Hall: Actually, my mom did pretty well whenever we were kids, she was she worked in the medical industry, she was okay.
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Alexander Hall: But she was gone a lot of the time, which is the typical story so uh I didn't feel poor like we lived in a nice house and we had a big TV, you know, like all these standard stuff.
So I didn't feel poor but due to the disconnect of assume it was like emotional disconnect and stuff like that that's what drove me out of the house in into more you know party lifestyle ways that's how I feel at least so now, to answer your question money did not play a vital part that the I'm sorry the pursuit of money did not play a vital part in my early development.
But saying that it quickly did, because as soon as I left the house and left the security of my house and was no longer allowed to go to my house where my mom was that's when drugs and money and everything really, really took hold and we started to run like that.
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Kelly Paxton: Well, and then, this goes, this is the whole fraud and money psychology of it is that when you have to have money you'll do a lot to get it, but now that now that you are reformed, do you think you have a different relationship with money.
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Alexander Hall: Yes, and for multiple multiple reasons, so to your point, the amount of work that you'll put into getting money getting resources, so if you consider your most basic resources while operating as a fraudster or a drug dealer or whatever it was.
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Alexander Hall: Depending on what time you look at.
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Alexander Hall: You need food, you need drugs, you need cigarettes, you need gas, you need all this stuff So when I was when I had.
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Alexander Hall: noticed that I was just good at fraud right I figured out how to handle all of those resources.
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Alexander Hall: All of the time without money right, so I figured out how to get a lot of those things with simple math literal math on paper it's called generating credit card numbers math as a payment method is what I call it um.
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Alexander Hall: And by handling all your resources, then you have more time to actually go make money so when you make money easy come easy go so that's definitely true.
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Alexander Hall: But what was missing from all of that was an actual sense of purpose, you know and that's that's one thing that.
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Alexander Hall: is different now so now, I know that when my daughter is old enough to have an opinion of me, you know she'll have an opinion that Daddy does good things you know when my wife.
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Alexander Hall: When we talk about when we talk to each other, you know and we're just having a conversation we can both be proud of each other for all the steps that we've taken in the life that we left behind.
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Alexander Hall: That is stuff that quite literally you can't buy right, no matter how much money you have you can't buy those conversations and have them be true, but then secondarily now that I'm a father to my three stepsons amazing stepsons.
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Alexander Hall: And my baby and my wife now you know money it's more static, you know coming in, nowadays, but there's also more responsibilities that aren't being taken care of through fraud, so now you in your pocket, you have less money.
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Alexander Hall: But at the end of the day, you feel a lot more successful and you're contributing to a cause you're responsible.
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Alexander Hall: you're holding it down and that's something you can't do during fraud days with COPs kicking in your door drugs all over the place, and the risk of going to prison for 20 years at any given time so um yeah that's my whole evaluation of money than money now and how I feel.
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Kelly Paxton: Well yeah it's kind of like I've always liked being an employee and getting a paycheck every two weeks and I just knew it would be there, but now that I'm a solo printer.
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Kelly Paxton: Every time I get a check, I appreciate it more and it's just it's this weird sort of I don't like to be entrepreneurial I like steady paychecks but now that I am entrepreneurial when I do get a check on more appreciative.
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Kelly Paxton: Does that make sense.
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Alexander Hall: Oh 100% when I sent my first one, I sent my first invoice and I got the email, saying that the pay me button has been clicked and all that stuff I was running around the House jumping with joy, but then I immediately realized like that's going to a cell phone bill.
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Alexander Hall: So no I totally feel you there's a sense of spotted income it's going to happen for people like us, but you know it's still awesome nonetheless yeah.
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Kelly Paxton: yeah absolutely and you can tell your daughter, that you are guest on Great Women in Fraud.
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Alexander Hall: So much, especially on this day of all days yeah international women's day we are taping this so that's like awesome.
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Kelly Paxton: um I don't think I double checked I've been doing so much research, if you are going to write a book What would it be about.
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Alexander Hall: So I've already started that book actually.
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Kelly Paxton: In awesome tell us.
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Alexander Hall: So it's not very far in production it's just a spider skeleton I mean but it's about um.
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Alexander Hall: So I needed to be I'm trying to be storytelling so I want it to be about my history, the events that I can remember exactly how.
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Alexander Hall: Deep the operations ran how dangerous it actually was thankfully I'm still here, but there were there were countless situations where guns were being pointed at people knives were out cars were on fire just crazy stuff.
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Alexander Hall: So there's a lot of excitement that goes along with it, but that's not the intent behind.
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Alexander Hall: What I intend to publish that's going to be a fun thing so i'll do that, but my second book is intended to outline exactly what went into these operations exactly what the mindsets are because.
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Alexander Hall: As our friend Curry says, often you got to think like a fraudster in order to beat a fraudster so my second release is going to kind of piggyback off the first.
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Alexander Hall: entertainment one to actually really dive into the psychology that that at least I experienced you know I can't speak for everybody, but I can speak for myself.
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Alexander Hall: And really go into a way to be something that that business owners fraud fighters alike can pick up and develop a better understanding.
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Alexander Hall: Of what life was like for a fraudster one simple thing one example that I'll give you is that a lot of people have this mindset where.
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Alexander Hall: Fraudsters spend all day doing this one single transaction we got this one transaction we're going to do we got this card information we're going to sit here and do this.
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Alexander Hall: know that one transaction that you that you stopped from entering that company that e commerce, you know shop right.
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Alexander Hall: That was one out of probably 100 transactions that were put through because we, as you know, as fraudsters didn't mind putting through failing.
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Alexander Hall: transactions that was part of our checklist building system, we would do you know check and balance we do checklist.
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Alexander Hall: Variable sets of variables and stuff like that we would see what works see what doesn't work build a game plan until we can have a high success rate so.
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Alexander Hall: that's one thing that really should be, in my opinion, needs to be understood is that it's not just one transaction that went through and didn't go through there's 50 how many of them did you catch and that's what we need to be paying attention.
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Kelly Paxton: Well, and we talked about this beginning a tool Gawande his book The Checklist Manifesto, and I can see the checklist manifesto for fraudsters and you know and using that checklist I mean people.
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Kelly Paxton: Fraud is big big business, really, really big business, but people don't necessarily maybe see it as a business and being organized, but here I'm going online and I'm seeing you're all about checklist and I'm like wow.
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Kelly Paxton: that's impressive because I'm thinking that you know the fraudsters are just hanging out and they're kind of like let's try this, but no there's methodologies and all sorts of stuff it's a business.
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Alexander Hall: 100% yeah that's.
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Alexander Hall: The one thing that set me, apart from a lot of the other people that were operating is they were happy with the success rate of these like I like I call them, the low level.
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Alexander Hall: By stolen information fill in the blank with the carnival sites lists instructions vpn this sucks that card been dumped this that whatever it is.
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Alexander Hall: they're happy with that level of success well to me that's that's garbage like when you want to move up from that.
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Alexander Hall: You need to start experimenting with new new methods entirely new new ways to get value that's where the transfer value comes from more.
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Alexander Hall: More ways, so the problem is that I've assessed since coming over here we have a great idea of what.
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Alexander Hall: Hundreds of thousands of fraudsters are participating in like hundreds of thousands, which is valuable don't get me wrong.
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Alexander Hall: But the people who are still operating and have been for 15 years you've got to start opening your eyes to that potential and figure out what it looks like because not all fraud results in a chargeback you know, not all fraud results in.
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Alexander Hall: You know, in a data point in something that can be stopped by data point transaction analysis.
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Alexander Hall: there's a lot of curveballs out there and it's stuff that I've been doing for seven years, like this is nothing new and I'd love to help everybody get a thorough understanding of what I used to do so that they can see how it sends to affect them in their operations.
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Kelly Paxton: Well then, this goes to kind of.
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Kelly Paxton: it's different because usually we don't have fraudsters reform fraudsters on this show um, what are the best resources that have helped you along the way, I imagine your Google search history back then it's a little different than your Google search history now.
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Alexander Hall: So I would love to answer that question, but unfortunately I haven't because I'm on probation I stay away from everything fraud related I would love to follow in the footsteps of.
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Alexander Hall: I think his name was chase park who goes and researches the dark web things and goes and sees what new tactics are being advertised as fraud as a service.
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Alexander Hall: But because of me being on probation my PO can show up at any point in time, check my history here check my Facebook there check all this stuff.
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Alexander Hall: And if you see searches for this, and this, and this, and this that's a bunch of questions I'm going to have to answer so until I expire and get off paper.
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Alexander Hall: I'm actually not doing any research everything that I'm writing about comes straight from memory.
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Kelly Paxton: Okay interesting um.
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Kelly Paxton: Again, this is just such a fun question to ask someone on the different side of it at front fighting now you're on the frog what's one common myth about you know your previous profession that you want to debunk.
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Alexander Hall: Okay, it is it's a stigma for people in my position, so a lot of the stereotype the consideration is that people would be afraid to hire an ex fraudster because.
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Alexander Hall: What if we hire the ex fraudster and he goes back to fraud, oh my God what a horrible and you're right that'd be a horrible thing and that's a good fear to have, but when it comes to someone like.
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Alexander Hall: sorry to say, I don't want to sound like some big shot guy, but when it comes to someone like me at the end of my career.
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Alexander Hall: I didn't need stolen information to do any of the most reliable methods that I employed I didn't have to have stolen identity information I didn't need stolen card information.
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Alexander Hall: When I point out methods of payment method I literally mean a card, that is, in my name from my wallet no you can't see it sorry.
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Alexander Hall: my card right on paper generate numbers now, I have a bunch of stolen numbers that I didn't need to steal from anywhere I literally wrote them down.
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Alexander Hall: Now I go somewhere that on that that that it has such a week fraud prevention that I'm.
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Alexander Hall: That I can use generated card numbers, who don't have CV don't have billing don't have identity information it's just the card number and an expiration date in the future.
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Alexander Hall: That right there is enough to make more than $200,000 a year and and and the stigma that an ex fraudster is going to come work for a company and steal their information and jeopardize it and all that stuff for someone like me that's an insult, because that means that.
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Alexander Hall: I'm going to take all of this risk when I don't need it jump back into that world risk my position and risk imprisonment at a higher rate than I did back when I was operating so that's one stereotype that I feel should be.
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Alexander Hall: evaluated on a case by case basis X fraudsters are not destined to steal your information.
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Kelly Paxton: Okay um so then.
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Kelly Paxton: Do you have anyone from your I'm going to say past life, who sees how you've you know morphed into.
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Kelly Paxton: Consulting and stopping fraud, who says, can you help me out, I want to, I want to, I want to go to the light side, or you know, do you have some of your old buddies who are like can I do what you do Can you help me get out of this.
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Alexander Hall: So I have one I only speak to one person from my past again because of my probation I got rid of all of my acquaintances I don't talk to I don't speak with anybody from my past, especially in the fraud but.
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Alexander Hall: As far as drugs, my drug life went back in the day when drugs was a priority there's one person who I speak with and yeah I told him I said he's cleaned up now.
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Alexander Hall: he's doing a construction gig he's making good money but I said once things pick up you know what we used to do.
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Alexander Hall: Like from an outsider's perspective, he was around for a lot of the operations, I said, you know if you want to come over, let me know.
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Alexander Hall: And he's just waiting for that day so to answer your question, out of the one person I speak to that one person, yes, wants to help with the operations yeah.
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Kelly Paxton: that's great let's see you're a mentor, that is, you know, and this is what great women in fraud is all about is mentoring other people so I'm glad to hear that I'm.
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Kelly Paxton: Again, these questions are just so different from what you know the regular guests are but I'm honored that you would do this is like.
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Kelly Paxton: If you could work in a different job field What would it be like did you ever have dreams of like I don't know being an architect, or something like that.
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Alexander Hall: It was always musician I wanted to be a musician whether it was a rock star whether I was just some guitarist over here, I was always music and then because of drugs and fraud and the demand on time that that all took.
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Alexander Hall: I lost a lot of my musicianship so now like I told you, before we started recording.
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Alexander Hall: My wife and I are planning on getting a CD finished this year and it's going to be somewhere between the lines of death metal tool and classical opera and it's it's we're super excited to get this thing done but to answer your question I'd love to be a rock star but.
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Kelly Paxton: That is awesome that and I cannot wait, I will be first in line to buy it absolutely first in line to buy it so that.
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Kelly Paxton: Is there someone you look up to in this field.
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Alexander Hall: So it's in the answer is yes in different ways, because there's a split personality thing happening here so like I mentioned in our call before there's the Frank Abagnale and the Brett Johnson's of the world.
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Alexander Hall: Not of the world there's the Frank Abagnale and Brett Johnson.
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Alexander Hall: And when it comes to them, you know it gave me a lot of inspiration to see what can come after the dark coming into the light and what it can hold right.
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Alexander Hall: So there's That, then, but then there's also the split personality of the other personality which is like, how do I make an how do I make an impact in fraud prevention rather than just being.
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Alexander Hall: An interest like a like an entertainment story like oh this guy did some crazy stuff how do I actually have an impact over here that's that's what I'm focused on now.
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Alexander Hall: Or what I aim to focus on and for people like that, I think that you know currys is doing an awesome job you're doing an amazing job.
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Alexander Hall: there's there's several people that are in my feed that that are really.
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Alexander Hall: constantly putting out this information they're not simply chasing trends, or simply.
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Alexander Hall: Selling stuff it's like all of your posts are like hey you should be aware of this and then you move on to the next one, you should be aware of this, it will move on to the next one it's it's just a continuing cycle of information so I'd love to be you know.
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Alexander Hall: I'd love to follow in the footsteps of the trail you guys blazed but just bring my own spin into it, so that way I can cover this side of it, while you're covering this side and yeah so there's a lot of inspiration that I have a lot of inspirational people that I have.
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Alexander Hall: Neither one of them.
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Kelly Paxton: I appreciate that and.
Therefore #sharingiscaring, because I do get a lot of people who asked questions about identity theft, we also had a guest recently Carrie Kerskie on about identity theft.
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Kelly Paxton: And it's not my wheelhouse, as I told you before, when I worked at the sheriff's office I'm wanting to work embezzlement cases because they were easy.
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Kelly Paxton: it's like low hanging fruit, whereas when I would get like this big complex identity theft cases I was chasing ghosts and it was whack a mole and I have a really hard time with it and I just.
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Kelly Paxton: My brain didn't go that way, so I need to be able to have resources, and I think we've created a great Anti Fraud community.
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Kelly Paxton: And and we're not hoarding information, I do not believe in hoarding information so um yeah and there's lots of people out there who love to hoard information, let me tell you.
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Kelly Paxton: um so another thing that we talked about earlier is We talked a little bit about the gender divide and.
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Kelly Paxton: You know people think pink collar crime is about women and it's not as position not gender, but you had an interesting take on gender is that women provided information do you want to talk about that a little bit.
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Alexander Hall: So, in your operation or in an operation there's how you get information that's.
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Alexander Hall: The first step if you're going down that path, employing these methods, you need to get the stolen information so now.
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Alexander Hall: I quickly abandoned the dark web because I just it just wasn't worth my time, you can easily get more information by sourcing it locally and then you have full control of that well in order to do that, like I said earlier, you hear that.
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Alexander Hall: Drug addicts are being leveraged in order to get information they'll even sell their own information so maybe someone is a drug addict who has a clean credit history, who hasn't.
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Alexander Hall: yet taken advantage of bank accounts and other credit lines and stuff like that so they'll sell their information for 20 SEC, and now you've got this to play with you can go experiment with this this this you know.
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Alexander Hall: Empty credit thing this empty credit identity so there's that example Another example is whenever.
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Alexander Hall: You know the street level guys will go break into cars houses, whatever steal safes and they'll go break into real estate.
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Alexander Hall: Mortgage companies and still the credit applications or the loan applications and all that.
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Alexander Hall: Then, after that you have people that actually work in these industries who are willing to give you mortgage information willing to give you, Dr office information stuff like that, now as far as gender playing into all of this.
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Alexander Hall: In my experience, and again all of my experience was all local to me, is all you know people I physically rubbed elbows with.
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Alexander Hall: What I saw was that males typically ran the operations females provided information, either for the trick of drugs or for the promise of being paid when something kicked off.
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Alexander Hall: yeah you rarely saw females at the head of an operation.
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Alexander Hall: But you.
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Alexander Hall: consistently I'm not going to say more or less but mostly consistently saw females being exploited, either for information on.
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Alexander Hall: Further information, yes.
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Kelly Paxton: Okay, so just back this is me being so incredibly ignorant and I'm going to save my audience to what's a 20 SEC, I mean, I think I know what it is, or what what's a 20 staff.
00:24:59.610 --> 00:25:09.900
Alexander Hall: Whatever $20 will buy you from whoever your seller is so if you're buying math a 20 SEC can way X it's just whatever $20 so it's only worth $20.
00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:13.110
Kelly Paxton: Oh I'm so embarrassed okay okay.
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:17.400
Kelly Paxton: I got it I gotta get my little my lingo going there so I'm.
00:25:18.570 --> 00:25:24.870
Kelly Paxton: Now you said to me earlier that you just now watched catch me if you can yeah yeah.
00:25:24.990 --> 00:25:26.040
Alexander Hall: A couple months ago yeah.
00:25:26.550 --> 00:25:28.800
Kelly Paxton: yeah and what, in your thoughts about it.
00:25:33.600 --> 00:25:41.820
Alexander Hall: It was amazing to me how, at the height of his criminal career he had extra information or extra.
00:25:42.570 --> 00:25:51.930
Alexander Hall: equipment, you know all of this huge robust equipment like at the end of the movie when you show up and he's got these things are the size of buses, like in that in that place, I was nuts.
00:25:53.310 --> 00:25:59.370
Alexander Hall: To think that that was what it took in order to do quote unquote check fraud like we have now nowadays.
00:26:00.630 --> 00:26:10.710
Alexander Hall: that's what it took back then, and what it takes now I mean everyone has a laser jet or has an inkjet printer everybody has access to an office depot.
00:26:12.780 --> 00:26:21.720
Alexander Hall: I won't go into too much detail but effectively for $60 you can have his exact same operation and that's how much that's how much difference there has been so.
00:26:22.860 --> 00:26:28.050
Alexander Hall: There was, it was it was crazy to see that the operation that I was doing.
00:26:30.450 --> 00:26:31.710
Alexander Hall: 10 years ago now.
00:26:32.820 --> 00:26:35.550
Alexander Hall: A year or two into my operation.
00:26:37.080 --> 00:26:45.660
Alexander Hall: successfully and thoroughly and with probably just as much paper going through his thing and it cost me 60 bucks it cost him.
00:26:46.800 --> 00:26:51.810
Alexander Hall: However much millions of stolen equipment and stolen this and stolen that, as well as.
00:26:52.230 --> 00:27:07.620
Alexander Hall: The requirement for all these elaborate identity things like changing into a doctor or into a lawyer into a pilot just all that crazy stuff and it worked great good job man, you get props as a you know if I were still a fraudster from one fraudster to another props but.
00:27:08.730 --> 00:27:09.810
Alexander Hall: Man it's so much easier now.
00:27:11.490 --> 00:27:28.680
Kelly Paxton: And that's scary to even hear that it's so much easier, but yeah the economies of scale have really you know less than the cost of doing it and the I don't want to say the rewards, but the payoffs so much bigger these days so much bigger these days.
00:27:29.070 --> 00:27:43.380
Alexander Hall: yeah yeah absolutely there's a lot, so I can say this there's definitely a big difference between walking into a bank and cashing a check or like in his case handing a check over to a hotel or whatever it may be, rather than just.
00:27:44.430 --> 00:27:54.870
Alexander Hall: preemptively setting up a bank account that's going to match the future check that you're making this check into depositing it through a mobile deposit APP like that that that.
00:27:55.590 --> 00:28:06.060
Alexander Hall: All this this customer satisfaction and convenience really just opens the door and perpetuates fraud and that's you got to be prepared for it so anyway yeah.
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:12.270
Kelly Paxton: yeah I mean business is an e commerce is so concerned about friction.
00:28:12.810 --> 00:28:27.840
Kelly Paxton: Like you know we as consumers have just such limited patients, where, if something is like that you get the spinning ball of death, while you're waiting for the shopping cart to you're just like oh forget it I'm just gonna go to Amazon, or you know.
00:28:29.070 --> 00:28:31.800
Kelly Paxton: So, speaking of not to pick on Amazon like.
00:28:33.150 --> 00:28:49.260
Kelly Paxton: Do you have, and you don't have to name the companies but are there some companies out there that you're just like they're just miles ahead of everyone else in fraud prevention and what makes a company miles ahead and fraud prevention, besides hiring you.
00:28:52.500 --> 00:29:01.410
Alexander Hall: Okay, so I have three answers for that sorry but they apply in different ways, so for physical in person stuff right I think Walmart.
00:29:02.550 --> 00:29:16.350
Alexander Hall: Walmart is just yeah they're there they were intimidating for a very good stretch of time until they opened up new new what I'm calling transfers a value that's good to be exploited, but at least for in store stuff.
00:29:17.580 --> 00:29:26.850
Alexander Hall: Walmart was really on point and a lot of people were afraid of them like anytime that I went to jail for like traffic stuff or whatever there'll be 10 people in their locked up, based on Walmart's.
00:29:27.900 --> 00:29:36.060
Alexander Hall: or 10 people that have experienced with Walmart system, so the system goes like this, at least, based on what everyone was telling me, I never personally experienced it, but what I've heard was.
00:29:37.080 --> 00:29:41.580
Alexander Hall: They walk in they steal something like a booster will go steal something and they'll leave okay well.
00:29:41.820 --> 00:29:48.390
Alexander Hall: Someone will see that that took place and they'll go get the video clip or the screenshot and they'll write it down on this little worksheet.
00:29:48.870 --> 00:29:56.310
Alexander Hall: Then, that same person will come back and steal another thing and then the walk out and then they'll make a note of that Coca Cola well they build up this huge.
00:29:56.700 --> 00:30:04.800
Alexander Hall: worksheet that at the end of it is enough to absolutely press charges and when or whatever the term is when a case.
00:30:05.610 --> 00:30:10.290
Alexander Hall: So, now that same person walks into the store, one more time and before they have a chance to do anything.
00:30:10.590 --> 00:30:19.110
Alexander Hall: They get scooped up thrown into the room COPs called here's a flash drive with all the information here's the worksheet take them away our lawyers will handle the rest.
00:30:19.470 --> 00:30:31.320
Alexander Hall: That type of an approach for in person things was intimidating, to say the least right so there's so there's that example another example was BestBuy whatever Best Buy doing seems to be.
00:30:33.300 --> 00:30:36.270
Alexander Hall: really good, because there are several instances where.
00:30:38.040 --> 00:30:47.820
Alexander Hall: Both with internal credit like the story issued credit was one another one was a brand new credit card and then.
00:30:48.510 --> 00:30:57.390
Alexander Hall: As well as the operation, where you steal credit card information and put it through, there were there were some successes don't get me wrong but, more often than not.
00:30:59.070 --> 00:31:03.510
Alexander Hall: It would make it through processing, it would make it all the way through until it was just ready for pickup.
00:31:03.990 --> 00:31:11.040
Alexander Hall: And then you get a notification, that it was cancelled, and it was not like it didn't make any sense in relation to how everyone else works, where.
00:31:11.700 --> 00:31:21.510
Alexander Hall: When you make the transaction it goes into their system, you get a confirmation email, and then the next day you get told up this has been flagged you need to prove your identity or it's been canceled your.
00:31:22.830 --> 00:31:28.740
Alexander Hall: Best buy was the system that stood out to me it seemed to they seem to be able to stop it without.
00:31:29.790 --> 00:31:37.800
Alexander Hall: Stopping it at the at the onset right, so it was confusing to deal with so confusing, in fact, that I just quit trying early on.
00:31:39.270 --> 00:31:50.370
Alexander Hall: So there's those two and the third thing is more of an idea, rather than a company to list, and that is for any fraud fighter out there be aware.
00:31:50.910 --> 00:31:59.970
Alexander Hall: That fraud stands to exist in every transfer value now transfer value is anywhere where someone can get something from you, so that store credit, because they returned.
00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:06.030
Alexander Hall: A shoe box, full of rocks okay that's a transfer value and that's a potential exploit.
00:32:06.330 --> 00:32:20.880
Alexander Hall: Your marketing department buy one get one for free and someone goes and makes 50 emails to sign up for this one time thing Well now, your marketing department is giving out this this this promotion right for more than they intended to do.
00:32:22.170 --> 00:32:25.980
Alexander Hall: and countless others when you establish a line of credit either online or in store.
00:32:26.610 --> 00:32:35.670
Alexander Hall: The transfer value, there is just a person with stolen identity information getting money from you, you know when you're cashing a check you and you're doing this when.
00:32:36.540 --> 00:32:40.470
Alexander Hall: In store returns with receipts that are fake like someone makes a fake.
00:32:40.860 --> 00:32:48.540
Alexander Hall: receipt but because your system doesn't actually do a cross reference of other receipts and when it was issued, who it was issued to or whether or not the item was even bought from you.
00:32:48.930 --> 00:32:56.970
Alexander Hall: that's another transfer value that stands to be exploited and consider the difference between a hot dog vendor who only deals in cash for hot dogs.
00:32:57.420 --> 00:33:07.260
Alexander Hall: And the corporate juggernaut Walmart lines of credit checks for payment credit cards for payment what drop shipping E commerce online in store retail it all the stuff right.
00:33:08.760 --> 00:33:16.830
Alexander Hall: that's the third part is just understand where your vulnerabilities are and do something to fix them so that's all three sorry for.
00:33:17.190 --> 00:33:18.690
Kelly Paxton: That is awesome.
00:33:18.990 --> 00:33:29.190
Kelly Paxton: So if you could tell just regular you know, Joe citizen or Jill citizen, what is the easiest thing you can do to protect yourself like.
00:33:30.210 --> 00:33:38.730
Kelly Paxton: Very easiest thing you can do like I say to business owners mail a bank state mail your bank statements home what's the easiest thing Joe citizen can do to protect themselves.
00:33:39.150 --> 00:33:47.940
Alexander Hall: sign up for and monitor your credit point blank period if someone opens a bank account in your name immediately be notified if someone.
00:33:49.410 --> 00:33:57.510
Alexander Hall: it's important to understand that it's not just your information so say you bank with bank a B, or you bank with bank a.
00:33:57.930 --> 00:34:03.090
Alexander Hall: And you have PayPal and you have Amazon, you have whatever right, so you have the setup of accounts.
00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:11.730
Alexander Hall: Those aren't the only things that can be leveraged against your identity like if you go to another bank or credit union another financial institution over there.
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:27.420
Alexander Hall: and make an account using your identity, you need to be aware of that happens, you know it's not just transfers and transactions out of your account it's the creation of new accounts you don't know what's happening and with as easy as it is to get Ahold of people's information.
00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:35.640
Alexander Hall: If I had one piece of information or 111 suggestion to give to every single human on the planet.
00:34:36.540 --> 00:34:49.680
Alexander Hall: monitor your credit effectively now, however, you choose to do that I know there's 1000 options to go about doing that I don't have a preference, but just make sure you're you're watching your stuff and that you get a notification when things change.
00:34:50.580 --> 00:35:01.620
Kelly Paxton: Okay, that is awesome as someone who has been part of a breach I do do that so that's great to know that someone proactive, maybe, yes, hopefully um so Alexander.
00:35:04.470 --> 00:35:12.600
Kelly Paxton: What happened, I asked you that you're like chomping at the bit to get out to the audience is there anything I haven't asked you, that is just chomping at the bit to get out of the audience.
00:35:13.140 --> 00:35:19.170
Alexander Hall: I don't think so, this has been a lot of fun, as a matter of fact I'm a little winded because I've been spewing and ranting so much.
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:24.240
Alexander Hall: But I know if there's anything else yeah I'm all yeah.
00:35:24.780 --> 00:35:32.250
Kelly Paxton: Okay, well, we will have links to connect to you online, and I would highly recommend it and again like.
00:35:32.640 --> 00:35:46.830
Kelly Paxton: To the audience we can't just look quote at people like us, we need to look at people with other experiences and that's why I like to bring people like you on the show, because if we're just looking at people like us we're not going to learn.
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:53.370
Alexander Hall: 100% it's important to back that up the important thing is this.
00:35:55.170 --> 00:35:56.610
Alexander Hall: To all the fraud fighters out there.
00:35:58.230 --> 00:36:09.870
Alexander Hall: You are actively attempting to create a shield against a fraudster sword, you know so as an effective fraudster you know, in a past life I'm here telling you.
00:36:11.130 --> 00:36:16.290
Alexander Hall: What to be what kind of a Defense you should be building where you should look for the soft spots.
00:36:16.650 --> 00:36:23.190
Alexander Hall: I'm definitely not the best there ever was I'm not but I'm the one who's here now and I'm giving you what the information that I can give you.
00:36:23.490 --> 00:36:37.170
Alexander Hall: leverage it take it to hit me up and asked me some questions if you want to know about some specific operations, you know anybody can ask me directly, but yeah I highly recommend taking this information and putting action behind it yeah so.
00:36:37.230 --> 00:36:44.520
Kelly Paxton: Well, one last one last thing I have is that I think a lot of people thinks that like these sort of.
00:36:45.660 --> 00:36:46.470
Kelly Paxton: I'm going to say.
00:36:47.730 --> 00:37:03.960
Kelly Paxton: dark fraudsters are like all over in Eastern Europe, and your proof that it isn't a bunch of ghosts over in Eastern Europe hacking our computers it's people in our communities that are doing this type of work, would you agree.
00:37:04.950 --> 00:37:09.390
Alexander Hall: Oh absolutely it's every it's yeah to there.
00:37:09.990 --> 00:37:17.760
Alexander Hall: Okay, so yeah it's important to understand there are zero limitations on fraudsters zero there's zero whether you if you define a piece of fraud.
00:37:18.030 --> 00:37:24.540
Alexander Hall: And that's what a company decides to focus on that's great but understand that's just one piece of the front puzzle like.
00:37:24.930 --> 00:37:34.500
Alexander Hall: there's fraud everywhere and now you've got good customers committing fraud, like the friendly fraud and the charge backs the marketing abuse the policy abuse, and all this stuff where they're not.
00:37:35.070 --> 00:37:46.050
Alexander Hall: Fraudsters per se, but your company's still bad dishonest practices are still costing your company money, so if you want to define it so that they're nice people doing bad things.
00:37:46.380 --> 00:37:51.780
Alexander Hall: versus bad people doing bad things you're still losing money I don't know what to tell you.
00:37:52.500 --> 00:38:01.740
Alexander Hall: So that that's one example and that's regarding the definition of fraud as far as the locality and geography of fraud know it's everywhere and everywhere that you think it is there's a.
00:38:02.010 --> 00:38:08.700
Alexander Hall: better chance that if they're doing some low level fill in the blank bs from the dark web, they just have a vpn coming from another country.
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:20.040
Alexander Hall: Now I will say that, based on what I've seen there's a lot more likelihood of an established operation with a call Center full of 100 scammers.
00:38:20.640 --> 00:38:30.000
Alexander Hall: I didn't personally encounter that ever in my operation so maybe that concept, you know it's more likely to be overseas or somewhere over there, fine cool great.
00:38:30.600 --> 00:38:41.520
Alexander Hall: But don't ever think that by limiting your understanding or definition of fraud you're doing anybody any favors you're not yeah yeah.
00:38:41.610 --> 00:38:45.600
Kelly Paxton: And we just we don't want to think it's in our hood we just don't.
00:38:48.720 --> 00:39:01.020
Alexander Hall: To that point consider so I gave this story about how the houses used to get stolen stealing houses right and I gave that example it's not like we're gonna go steal houses down in the slums.
00:39:03.810 --> 00:39:07.110
Alexander Hall: If I'm gonna get in trouble for stealing house I'm still in a nice house.
00:39:08.580 --> 00:39:18.540
Kelly Paxton: Oh, I went and I did a thing with a real estate professionals last year, and you know I came as the investment expert and by the end of the conference I'm just like.
00:39:19.020 --> 00:39:26.730
Kelly Paxton: I'm contacting my attorney and it's like I can't have this title fraud happened to me like it can happen, and it was.
00:39:27.120 --> 00:39:32.970
Kelly Paxton: You know so here, I went as the expert and I actually came back with even more information, where I can protect myself more.
00:39:33.240 --> 00:39:42.420
Kelly Paxton: So yeah yeah and you're not going to steal that you know I'm going to say the crappy you know duplex in the hood you're going to steal the Nice house on the lake.
00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:48.750
Kelly Paxton: So yeah there's no wants to where do you want to live nice house on the lake crappy duplex
00:39:49.350 --> 00:40:04.830
Kelly Paxton: So yeah it's as simple as that well Alexander, I want to thank you so much for coming on and, like, I said to the audience, this is really important to hear from all parts of the fraud world, so thank you very, very much.
00:40:05.430 --> 00:40:07.110
Alexander Hall: you're very welcome, thank you for having me.
Outro: Well what did you think? Do you like listening to reformed fraudsters? Do you learn from them? The thing about a reformed fraudster is you have to give them a bit of credit for being public with their story. We don’t get the whole story but you might get more than with some “honest” people. Let me know what you think. Thank you for listening. Up next week is Mary Eastwood Jones. As a teaser she is amazing. She only knows 5 languages unlike her Dad with 11 languages. You are going to love the episode.