Great Women In Fraud

Episode 28 John Hoda

April 13, 2021 Kelly Paxton, CFE Episode 28
Show Notes Transcript

This week we have another special guest who also is a podcast host.  John Hoda of My Favorite Detective Stories and How To Rocket Your PI Business. I feel like an underachiever only doing Great Women in Fraud.  He also is a popular guest on other investigation podcasts. We talk about coaching, mindset, and learning as business owners.  It is so great to talk with another solopreneur who understands investigations and the business of being a PI.  And after we recorded this episode I had the absolute pleasure of being on John’s podcast which will come out in early June I  believe.  We talk fraud and tv shows.  Let’s get started because John is a busy guy. 

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Kelly Paxton: Welcome to another week of Great Women in Fraud and this week we're going to have a great man great dude like just great person in fraud and that's John Hoda and I'm again as always honored to have such amazing guests so John you know, some people might say that you and I compete and I don't think so at all, I think we add to each other.

So why don't you give your background and you've been doing the podcast thing way longer than me and we're not competitors, I think we're colleagues completely.


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John Hoda: I don't disagree with you and thank you very much for having me on the show Kelly, I certainly appreciate this opportunity. My days as a fraud investigator go back to 1978 so just to tell you that when dinosaurs walked the earth, I was out there with them as a fraud investigator.

I had been a police officer working a lot of nights and weekends and holidays on a small suburban police department outside of Philadelphia.  And I had an opportunity to work for one of the original insurance investigation companies Equifax way back in the day.

And after a brief stint with an insurance company, I then worked for what was then the Insurance Crime Prevention Institute, which was a forerunner to the National Insurance Crime Bureau. When they melted emerged  ICPI within a TV and then after that I was seiu with a couple different insurance companies multinationals and during that time period I looked and saw that I was vending out so much money to private investigators to do insurance fraud work that in September of 1997. I'm sorry independent special investigations was created and I created a company that extensively was going to be a super regional from Bangor to Baltimore.


And we were going to do, insurance fraud investigations in the northeast and the MID Atlantic States so that was my start also am a Certified Fraud Examiner.

Through the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners and I've always had some sort of a fraud case bubbling around on my desk during my various iterations so that's my very quick story.


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Kelly Paxton: Well, maybe you left out your podcast.

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John Hoda: Oh well, the podcast Thank you came about, about two and a half, three years ago, when I decided that I wanted to interview investigators that to tell me about their favorite detective stories, hence the term my Favorite Detective Stories and it was wonderful podcast starting out I got people from all types of all walks of life in the investigative community.

Even a few amateur investigators, with great stories.

And I also was interviewing people that not only were they great investigators, but they also had written about their exploits so they had true crime books or some type of book related to their investigations.


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John Hoda: And I found myself being more drawn to those people that wrote as well, and my favorite detective stories now is almost exclusively with crime writers fiction crime writers or crime writers talking about the stories that they would like to tell so that's how it worked. Hundred and 20 527 episodes there I air every other week with that I also have another podcast, which is How to Rock Your Private Investigations Business.

Which where I talked with private investigators specifically about the business of their business and how they got better at doing the business and how they learn from their own mistakes and how to get better at marketing and generating more income for them for their work and expanding their business.

You mentioned to me that you had just listened to a podcast of mine, which was Jan Barefoot.

And she's a perfect example of somebody that's been working really hard over the long period of time and incrementally growing her business and her business and realizing also that she doesn't know all the answers yourself and how to hire extra help.

In the areas that she wasn't completely knowledgeable about or were wanting to him, she off boarded quite a bit of work to other people that are much happier doing it so those are my two podcasts and I love doing it every week and in about another hour I get to invest I get to interview a wonderful investigator so I'm looking forward to that.


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Kelly Paxton: Yet no podcast fade for you and I was concerned, a little bit about podcast fade they say it episode seven or eight episode 20 people just kind of drop.


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Kelly Paxton: I have no interest in dropping cuz I'm honored that anyone would want to be on it, and then, when I see the downloads every week and they're growing.

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John Hoda: Every week.


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Kelly Paxton: But the consistency of it, and knowing that we're making a difference and we're helping people.


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John Hoda: yeah absolutely. You know. Go ahead.



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Kelly Paxton: Oh you've probably seen you know I'm the fraud hashtag queen on Linkedin.


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Kelly Paxton: and other things, but the hashtag sharing is caring and we wouldn't have met each other if I don't think we've been each giving a lot of content.


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John Hoda: Right absolutely that's the absolute truth, I think that a podcast has to be.

 informational inspirational and all. People want all three things and I tried to deliver on that I know you do too and you're right 90% of podcasts go into oblivion after a couple several months, and it could be, for various reasons, and the biggest reason is, I think a lot of packet podcast off board the production aspect of the work now, you mentioned that you have someone helping you with the production, I asked them to me with my production and that has been a lifesaver for me absolute lifesaver so but as long as your  to your audience and your genuine with what you want to try to get across and if you really care about your topic know you care. I care about my topic if it was disingenuous for either one of us we'd be just a couple talking heads and there's no and people would see through that immediately or here through that immediately, you know what I'm saying so, I find that.



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John Hoda: If you like, who you're talking to and you really are interested in what they have to say, then you're just a listener like they are, and you learn, and let me tell you what it's done for me and I'm sure what it's doing for you in the short time period that you're doing it.

Is you're slowly realizing you're becoming somewhat of an influencer in the industry, and that by having these podcasts you're getting some more gravitas and that by having more gravitas people are more willing, then, to become on your podcast.



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John Hoda: And it's just a it's a self-perpetuating cycle, and I think it's something that I, I find that I'm really enjoying a great deal that people are now reaching out to me. To get on to my podcast I'm like oh okay.


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Kelly Paxton: Absolutely absolutely um so you're known as the PI coach and I will tell you I'm a little. I was a little late to that because I think I tried to get the p I coach.com a long time ago and I think you had it.


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John Hoda: Thank you.


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John Hoda: Actually, somebody.

Somebody had something very, very similar and that's why I had to put the in there, the PI coach so somebody had PII coach COM.


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John Hoda: So I put the D in there and I wasn't about to pay somebody in Cleveland Ohio a gazillion dollars to get a domain name, when I could just do something very similar um I found that after 24 years of investigations private investigations.


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John Hoda: I found that I had probably made every mistake possible in the marketing or growth growing my businesses over the years and through the various pivots I had, I was able to learn from a lot of my mistakes and then grow, but I also changed my own approach that my mindset went from being an investigator who owned the business to a business person that did investigations.


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John Hoda: And when that change to place it just opened my eyes to a more of an opportunity to expand my business and be able to grow my customer base and be able to give them better service, because I was thinking more of them, rather than the kind of cases that I'd be working so.


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John Hoda: So the coaching part came several years ago after I wrote four books on the subject, how to launch your private investigations business. 90 days to lift off how to market your private investigations business less than five hours a week, really.

How to boost your private business make $1,000 every working day and then the three of them are combined into how to rocket your private investigations business to complete series.


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John Hoda: So the books were written to be books as a business card for private investigation coaching I built the website and.


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John Hoda: started reaching out to people and offer them free training, just so that they could get you know I could get the cockiness out of the relationship between coach.


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John Hoda: and client and once I did that I went live with it back in January of 19 and my afternoons get booked up pretty quickly so except for Friday's that's my podcast so.


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Kelly Paxton: yeah no I think it's so important, I actually did Coach U  I don't know, five years ago, six years ago because I didn't know that someone like well you weren't around back then, as this is a business model, but it is so much about the mindset, because I, I think, at the time I was looking for a mentor and I thought, a mentor was a coach and it's not. Such a big difference, and when I did the program through coach you I was like I don't need a PI coach I need a mindset coach for me I needed a mindset coach much more than I needed a PI coach.


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Kelly Paxton: I love, how you have done so much SIU work, and this is a silly question did you watch the TV show Leverage with Timothy Hutton.


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John Hoda: Sure yeah.


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Kelly Paxton: Oh, my gosh did you like it.


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John Hoda: I did I liked the fact that you know he's. Yes, yes, you know, and you know here, each of his people have their own little quirks and idiosyncrasies but together those band of misfits pull together a great great heist for a good reason I guess that's a good way of saying right and always enjoyed that show yes.


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Kelly Paxton: yeah that was filmed in Portland a lot of it was filmed in Portland. Okay, but I'm a Timothy Hutton also looks like my brother so that's kind of.

What I did the whole idea, he was this great SIU investigator and his company, basically, you know declined his kids experimental treatment and then he ends up kind of being a little bit of an SIU Robin Hood but only for good causes so I don't know I really liked that um.


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Kelly Paxton: I think the SIU work is really fascinating because a lot of people, especially now in pandemic think that insurance fraud doesn't cost, and you have seen firsthand exactly how much insurance fraud does cost.


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John Hoda: Oh absolutely yeah for real. One of my first cases back in the day was where I worked on a massive staged accident ring and it went through the entire city of Philadelphia, and one law firm office manager and a cadre of runners in the various cities sections of Philadelphia had this massive accident ring where they just made up fictitious accidents. Well, what that did was he drove up the insurance rates throughout not only Philadelphia, but the surrounding counties to like double what other metropolitan areas we're dealing with because simply because the fraud was so rampant and so expensive when that fraud ring was cracked the number of suspicious claims or the number of fraudulent bodily injury claims plummeted and then there was a tremendous savings to the insurance carriers that they also passed on to the premium payers, the people out there, but you also have another situations where you had people I can't tell you how many times I've seen this where I talked to legitimately injured parties to an automobile accident, who did not realize that they were entering into a whiplash mill.  An attorney whose only purpose was to you know, to get to settlement or to you know to somehow squeeze out X number of dollars out of their accident.


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John Hoda: They would this attorney would then send them to doctors that were only interested in the number of treatments necessary to.


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John Hoda: Make the make the claim possible so that they get a decent settlement.


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John Hoda: Never with an idea towards actually treating the people for their injuries and I can't tell you the number of times I've talked to people who received their percentage of the settlement after and then and then in some States they had a subtract out that those same inflated medical bills to be to receive a paltry settlement and they still had a bad back where they still could not do this, or they still had some sort of other limitation that didn't allow them to do.


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John Hoda: And they did not get the proper attorney and they did not get the proper treatment and now they're left with a pit of miniscule amount of money for what truly was a lot more pain and suffering and they never got the proper treatment to go with it does this resonate with any of the things that you've seen yourself.


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Kelly Paxton: So one of my first task force cases when I was a special agent from US customs in Seattle was a staged accident auto ring.


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Kelly Paxton: And it was so funny because I came home from a search warrant at a chiropractor's office, one day, and I was the filthiest almost of any search warrants I'd ever done and I was in a chiropractor's office, because it was just it was so incredibly filthy I can't imagine anyone that actually got any treatments there because we were having to you know sit on the floors and go through boxes and I was completely filthy, and that is not what you think of for a real chiropractor at all.


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John Hoda: that's true I got chiropractor stories, but not for another day.


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Kelly Paxton: Well, my father-in-law was a neurosurgeon he's got lots of chiropractors started you.


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John Hoda: know and I'm not damning chiropractic I, in fact, I just had an adjustment, maybe two and a half hours ago great chiropractor but in terms of fraud case for many, many years ago I got some stories for you so.


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Kelly Paxton: that's what makes fraud fun is the stories.


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John Hoda: Absolutely no and actually  I wrote another book oh my God, I wrote books it's called mugshots my favorite detective stories and in there, I detail eight short stories and eight vignettes. And some of the stories have to deal with insurance fraud, they have to deal with the RICO case I was just telling you about because it was a RICO also a boat mysterious disappearance of a boat, which was called that double trouble and then I had and the very first one, I talked about is  A heavy piece of equipment, an excavator that got swallowed up in a mud hole, and the only problem with that was is that it happened, the week before the policy was reinstated so minor point yeah not a big deal.


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Kelly Paxton: we'll have links to I'm going to say all of your books.


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Kelly Paxton: Okay, which are a lot, because so here one of my questions on my sort of like synopsis is, if you were going to write a book What would it be about what you the book number what eight are you on eight nine like.


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John Hoda: A 1-234-567-8910.


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John Hoda: I have one percolating yes, I do.


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John Hoda: yeah I have a.


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John Hoda: I started also writing fiction, a few years ago and I based some of my fiction writing off of real life experience my very first fiction book.


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John Hoda: Oh decimal no it's not Odessa my very first fiction book was fantasy baseball which was when I got my writing bug and it's set in Philadelphia.


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John Hoda: And Reading Pennsylvania, but the crime thriller I wrote Odessa on the Delaware was based upon the Russian mob and in my days back as a fraud investigator back in Philadelphia, I had to deal with the Russian mob.


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John Hoda: In terms of how they were very, very good.


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John Hoda: At the very low high payout but low chance getting caught world that we know of by collar crime and insurance fraud so yeah and they also were causing people.


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John Hoda: In the Philadelphia community to commit insurance fraud because of their extortion claims they had to make they had they not extortion protection rackets.


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John Hoda: They were having a protection racket and if they didn't come up with the money well some of these Russian Russian mobsters were very good with ice picks.


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John Hoda: Oh yeah I know and to see a few of those on CCTV tapes yeah you just say no, no, no, thank you, but yeah they were vicious.


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John Hoda: vicious animals back in the day, so what better than to start my first crime thriller off with I titled in Odessa on the Delaware with a nod to where a lot of our friends come from Odessa which was actually in the Ukraine, and I said it in Philadelphia, hence Odessa on the Delaware so.


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Kelly Paxton: I love that and I love that so you know we think is investigators, we write boring reports, but here like I've written a book recently you've written, you know many, many books and it's a creative outlet.


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John Hoda: Sure, absolutely no doubt I talked about this a couple times to several people, mostly in the writing Community where I'll sit down on a cold February night like this past year with to start writing and I'll bro a cup of tea and I'll sit down and then.


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John Hoda: A little while later I'll reach for the tea and it's cold and I'm saying why is this cold, they just brewed it I looked up at the clock and was five hours later, so.


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John Hoda: five hours go by, like in a blink of an eye when you're writing you know and so both fiction or nonfiction you know, but I like to joke that I've been writing fiction, for a long time at least my clients would tell me that so.


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Kelly Paxton: that's good that is good um if you could turn back to your 18-year-old self.


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Kelly Paxton: yeah What would you say.


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John Hoda: uh  I would say.  You went for it and you got it. I did, because it goes back just a little bit earlier than that I worked at a gas station in my local town.


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John Hoda: And they had a contract with the police department, so the police department would come in and shift change to gas up and, of course.


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John Hoda: You know, back in the day and so long ago they actually whitewashed windshields and check the oil and did that sort of thing, and I did that.


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John Hoda: And I got talking to these COPs and you know and I'd always put the gas on slow, so that I can really hear all the stories.


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John Hoda: And I would take my time doing the windshields and what have you but they would just tell me these wonderful stories and I just said to myself someday I'm going to do that.


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John Hoda: And I know that I got hooked when they this jibberish would come across our radio, but they understood it, because it was that the number talk, you know 46 310 17 at blah blah blah.


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John Hoda: And off they went and screaming out of the parking lot and I be standing there with my squeegee in my hand saying oh I got to do that, so I went to college for criminology.


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John Hoda: And I came home and I actually ended up working in that same police department that I was you know, a kid no gassing their cars up for years earlier and.


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John Hoda: But I found that it was kind of stifling working in a 14 square mile 14,000 person population town.


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John Hoda: And with limited advancement possibilities I just said, you know there's something else out there for me and I always wanted to be a detective so.


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John Hoda: Very shortly thereafter I started becoming an investigator, and I saw you investigator, or you know.


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John Hoda: Private investigator and for 44 years I've just continued to hone my craft as an investigator so looking back to the 18-year-old kid he had the dream.


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John Hoda: And it's just now that I've fulfilled it and I there might have been there's a few regrets along the way, but obviously you know I'm very, very happy with my career and I got to do this, all the things I wanted to do.


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Kelly Paxton: And I think you've influenced way more people than the 14,000 you know population town, so I think you've really influenced a lot more people.


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John Hoda: Thank you appreciate that.


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Kelly Paxton: that's a good thing, so what are some of the resources that have helped you along the way.


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John Hoda: Mostly anything and everything I could lay my hands on regarding investigative interviewing I gotta tell you that.


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John Hoda: I went through avenues appears course on.


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John Hoda: The guy I just lost my brain just went.


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John Hoda: But scientific derogation LSA laboratory of scientists terrific interrogation That was one I took both the advanced and the.


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John Hoda: The introductory and the advanced course directly by Abba gnome Sapir SAP ir.


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John Hoda: Israeli calligrapher that studies.


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John Hoda: written language and how it can how you can break it apart, and you can see whether or not there's truthfulness or science of deception.


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John Hoda: Some people argue it's not empirically challenged, you know by scientific paper, but when he takes a class.


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John Hoda: And separates it in half and tells half the class to write out a fake story about what they did the day before, and the other half to tell a true story about what they did the day before.


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John Hoda: And he gives the fake ones, to the all the people that wrote the fake and he gives the.


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John Hoda: True ones to all the people that wrote the true ones and not miss not missed one of them out of a class of 50 hard-boiled detectives.


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John Hoda: And then also tell some people about some interesting things that they were leaving out of their true statements you knew, you had me at hello, at that point so maybe it's not.

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John Hoda: Scientifically challenged by whatever, but his stuff is just fantastic.


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John Hoda: I'd also say that if you can grab anything you possibly can, on oh sent, and I know that Cynthia hetherington and the hetherington group does a wonderful job they give out a tremendous amount of free content.


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John Hoda: On olson I would, I would say that that's the way of the future, honestly, I think that there's a lot of stuff that is now because we're more of a digital world we've gone from a paper world that became microfiche that then got copied into digital we're now more digital.


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John Hoda: Especially with social media I think that's another thing that I think grab Ahold of.


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John Hoda: I am always a big fan of learning more about your craft.


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John Hoda: I think that when I learned about insurance fraud, I had some really great teachers that taught me about policy construction policy language.


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John Hoda: So that terms and conditions and exclusions became almost second nature to me and I could then understand better than motive for why somebody might be trying to create a fraud or take.


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John Hoda: Completely fictitious event never happened and create it for profit or.


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John Hoda: Change the language of the claim so that would meet the terms and conditions of the policy, and that was the other thing that I always thought was.


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John Hoda: very helpful, so if you're going to be specializing in an area know what it is whether it's insurance understand policy language clean and claims apparatus and how it works.


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John Hoda: I had a time as a claims manager claims examiner claims adjuster so I've been on all levels of that so I understood you know the claims mechanism, I had good training is went to policy formation and language.


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John Hoda: Criminal Defense you have to understand you know the laws which you operate what's what the elements of the crime are I'm just getting that out as an example.


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John Hoda: I think that there's a lot of great things happening in the surveillance world with insurance fraud.


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John Hoda: Fraud generally I think there's a lot of great new products that can help investigators get better at honing in their time and effort.


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John Hoda: to figure out exactly what's going on in that claim, so that they can give a legitimate report back to the company.


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John Hoda: Provided that the methods that you're using are legal and ethical within the jurisdiction that you're in.


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John Hoda: because not every jurisdiction allows you know different things to work like GPS tracking, for one, so I would say that's another thing too, but I believe that if you are continuing to be a student.


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John Hoda: And you continue to have be curious a lot of the learning can be done through message boards, I guess, we call and listserv these days, you know.


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John Hoda: Locating assets locating people huge in our business huge and the better you get at it, the more tools, you have in the toolbox more arrows you have in your quiver.


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John Hoda: The better you're adding to doing that, but if I had to lay it out, for one thing, just one thing would be investigative interviewing and get as good as you can at that.


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John Hoda: there's a friend of mine his name's Jonathan Davison he operates a an organization here in the United States called peace through forensic interview solutions fantastic.


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John Hoda: trainer of investigative interviewing if you want to learn how to do a complete thorough investigation, where you're incorporating the tenants of cognitive interviewing is taught by.


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John Hoda: g Edward Geisel man and Ronald Fisher you can't beat that I mean just solid rock solid foundational investigative interviewing stuff yeah.


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Kelly Paxton: yeah so incredibly important, and you know this goes to my hashtag honest people steal um.


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Kelly Paxton: A lot of these people that are committing these crimes and they are crimes have made a bad choice, are they a bad person.


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Kelly Paxton: In the world.


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Kelly Paxton: That we travel in I mean when I was a special agent, yes I arrested typical bad guys but.


00:29:25.500 --> 00:29:44.310

Kelly Paxton: In this sort of fraud white color pink color world, these are people that for a long time, have been quote good people and then something causes them to cross that line they found their price, so that you know they think they do and enabled to talk to them, and my sort of soapboxes empathy.


00:29:44.820 --> 00:29:51.750

Kelly Paxton: You can't go in and hammer on someone, and I think you know that's probably one of them, you just you can't do it.


00:29:51.810 --> 00:29:52.560

Kelly Paxton: It doesn't work.


00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:06.540

John Hoda: You know, I would like to think when I prefer to claims withdrawal to an individual who I caught dead to rights and committing an insurance fraud.


00:30:07.470 --> 00:30:17.310

John Hoda: That my attitude was all of this can stop right here with this, you know not required to report this to the law enforcement community.


00:30:18.060 --> 00:30:33.990

John Hoda: Understand that your policy will get cancelled, you have to go somewhere else, but basically by you know signing this document this ends the matter it's done with it's gone and you and and and it's it gets put into a file and it's over with now.


00:30:35.490 --> 00:30:47.730

John Hoda: know that now some companies are mandatory reporters for insurance fraud or they have my have different rules, but I knew that sign when I was able to do that I was able to effectuate a claims withdrawal to mitigate all of that.


00:30:49.890 --> 00:31:01.440

John Hoda: Fear with them and be able to talk about their why they chose to do it the way they chose to do it and say this was their escape hatch you know meant that.


00:31:02.580 --> 00:31:13.590

John Hoda: They no longer had a claim for bad back they no longer had a claim for a slip and fall they no longer had a claim for that food poisoning the 15th time in the last six years.


00:31:15.030 --> 00:31:33.870

John Hoda: You know our or the stolen car or the torch car right or house, but essentially it gave them an out away from the situation as opposed to you know threatening them with which I couldn't do anyway, with you know.


00:31:34.890 --> 00:31:36.450

John Hoda: Law enforcement because.


00:31:37.620 --> 00:31:42.480

John Hoda: First of all, it's unethical and secondly it doesn't work yeah.


00:31:43.230 --> 00:31:59.820

Kelly Paxton: yeah no, I think I think being ethical number one and having empathy I mean you know you and I knock on wood have not had to make that decision, but this is the other thing about like insurance fraud is most everyone has insurance.


00:32:00.030 --> 00:32:00.420

John Hoda: mm hmm.


00:32:00.570 --> 00:32:15.270

Kelly Paxton: Oh it's not like you know, some people can't imagine committing a Ponzi scheme because they don't have access, but everyone most everyone has access to some type of insurance.


00:32:15.510 --> 00:32:21.660

Kelly Paxton: Right, so it just kind of you know, with the fraud triangle, everyone has the opportunity.


00:32:22.350 --> 00:32:23.400

John Hoda: No, no doubt about it.


00:32:24.510 --> 00:32:29.220

John Hoda: It can be as simple as trying to bury a deductible up to.


00:32:31.140 --> 00:32:55.710

John Hoda: inflating or inflating or exaggerating a claim to cover them for a loss that they had of items that may not have been covered, or have a minimal value in terms of what the insurance company will pay out versus what they feel that the items worth you know and it or.


00:32:57.630 --> 00:33:07.050

John Hoda: you're on the highway you stop and all of a sudden, you get rear ended, and the first thing that goes through your mind tell it's the low impact lotto I just I.


00:33:08.250 --> 00:33:09.570

John Hoda: just won the lotto right.


00:33:09.600 --> 00:33:13.200

John Hoda: So, then you go through your 36 treatments and.


00:33:14.850 --> 00:33:26.220

John Hoda: Physical therapy and you get your durable goods and then year and a half later well you know you're gonna get a check yeah and you haven't even discussed the bumper.


00:33:28.500 --> 00:33:28.920

Kelly Paxton: Oh no.


00:33:29.460 --> 00:33:31.230

John Hoda: You know what that's about yeah.


00:33:31.830 --> 00:33:46.830

Kelly Paxton: Well um we're gonna start wrapping it up here we've had coven and we talked briefly about leverage, is there any other sort of like fun fraud or criminal shows you've been bingeing since coven besides you've been writing.


00:33:50.130 --> 00:34:12.300

John Hoda: I have found that I watched. kind of sick. it's a show coming out of the BBC called Luther and the fellow that  played Stringer Bell in the wire.


00:34:15.090 --> 00:34:16.200

John Hoda: Idris Elba.


00:34:16.650 --> 00:34:25.770

John Hoda: yeah plays the lead in this book in this where he plays a London detective and it gets a little.


00:34:27.210 --> 00:34:34.650

John Hoda: A little out there now That being said, probably my favorite show is Better Call Saul.


00:34:37.050 --> 00:34:43.230

Kelly Paxton: I haven't watched I admit I haven't watched it, but my husband oh my gosh okay I recognize that yeah.


00:34:43.290 --> 00:34:45.450

John Hoda: yeah Better Call Saul.


00:34:46.410 --> 00:34:48.780

John Hoda: He puts the criminal and criminal Defense attorney yeah.


00:34:51.150 --> 00:35:04.170

Kelly Paxton: That is absolutely true oh my gosh and right now, you guys can't see it but John is showing as I call it hashtag fraud treasures and he's showing a great mug better call Saul oh my God.


00:35:04.230 --> 00:35:06.480

Kelly Paxton: That is delightful oh.


00:35:07.500 --> 00:35:16.260

John Hoda: I have one of the T shirts that it's in New Mexico it's a New Mexico license plate and it's a vanity plate lawyer up.


00:35:17.700 --> 00:35:19.440

John Hoda: yeah but no I love.


00:35:20.730 --> 00:35:22.110

John Hoda: That, of course.


00:35:23.730 --> 00:35:39.360

John Hoda: Every other episode, a better call Saul has some aspect of a fraud in it somewhere somehow and whether he's perpetrating it or he's trying to sniff it out, one way or the other but it's a fantastically written I don't know if I use the word right fantastically.


00:35:40.500 --> 00:35:43.140

John Hoda: It's written fantastically.


00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:45.270

John Hoda: it's fantastic.

 it's just it's great and great acting and it's just a wonderful and there's enough there's enough seasons of it out there, that you can binge watch on that.


00:35:56.190 --> 00:35:59.310

John Hoda: I haven't started watching box yet because.


00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:02.220

John Hoda: Well I'm a big fan of the books.


00:36:02.670 --> 00:36:07.680

John Hoda: And I saw I saw titus rollover playing Bosch and I said and.


00:36:09.120 --> 00:36:11.310

John Hoda: And they updated it they made him a.


00:36:12.720 --> 00:36:18.120

John Hoda: Gulf War vet versus of Vietnam War vet and I just thought man.


00:36:19.200 --> 00:36:20.100

Kelly Paxton: Oh, I enjoy it.


00:36:20.220 --> 00:36:21.720

John Hoda: I like the books better.


00:36:21.930 --> 00:36:25.350

John Hoda: I'm just you know call me a purist let's see what else.


00:36:26.610 --> 00:36:27.240

Kelly Paxton: Lupin.


00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:28.830

John Hoda: What.


00:36:29.190 --> 00:36:31.470

Kelly Paxton: Lupin


00:36:31.560 --> 00:36:42.960

Kelly Paxton: Oh, you gotta get it out there, it is oh I can't remember Omar Said I think his name, he it's set in France and it's.


00:36:43.410 --> 00:36:55.140

Kelly Paxton: A Lupin you gotta watch it it's only like five episodes and they're going to drop the next five, I think, in July so good so fast moving and there's the there's the little bit of the Robin Hood.


00:36:55.410 --> 00:36:59.220

Kelly Paxton: going on there underdog so be sure my sleeping and let me know how you like I.


00:36:59.220 --> 00:37:05.310

John Hoda: heard something about this i've heard this yeah and that he seems to be always one step ahead of the bumbling COPs.


00:37:05.370 --> 00:37:06.720

Kelly Paxton: All the time oh yes.


00:37:06.750 --> 00:37:07.440

John Hoda: yeah okay.


00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:10.050

Kelly Paxton: But there's one COP that's not fumbling there's always one.


00:37:10.470 --> 00:37:11.610

John Hoda: Okay, good.


00:37:12.630 --> 00:37:13.800

John Hoda: Trying to think what else.


00:37:15.600 --> 00:37:23.400

John Hoda: I spend more time reading these days than watching and I know I'm a big crime fiction, not as you can imagine.


00:37:24.540 --> 00:37:24.900

John Hoda: But.


00:37:27.030 --> 00:37:30.240

John Hoda: I follow a podcast with.


00:37:31.380 --> 00:37:32.580

John Hoda: sheila Wyosocki.


00:37:33.630 --> 00:37:34.800

John Hoda: without warning.


00:37:35.430 --> 00:37:39.930

John Hoda: yeah and that's an excellent podcast and that's true crime and that's where she's actually.


00:37:40.950 --> 00:37:53.370

John Hoda: knee-deep in the weeds with our actual unsolved case or a poorly solve case and I would recommend that highly to your listeners as well that's really good stuff as well produced as well, so yeah.


00:37:54.030 --> 00:37:57.330

Kelly Paxton: there's so much great content out there there's just so much.


00:37:57.480 --> 00:37:58.050

John Hoda: Too much.


00:37:58.470 --> 00:37:59.070

Kelly Paxton: Well yeah.


00:37:59.940 --> 00:38:01.620

John Hoda: Too much yeah yeah.


00:38:01.980 --> 00:38:10.020

Kelly Paxton: So I'm going to put all your books your podcasts everything in the show notes, what happened, I asked you that you want to get out to the audience.


00:38:12.570 --> 00:38:15.240

John Hoda: Well, I think that I've had a wonderful career.


00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:22.620

John Hoda: And that the unique thing about whether it's fraud investigation or other types of.


00:38:23.940 --> 00:38:33.540

John Hoda: Private investigation is that it's varied it's different it's unique nothing same every day I get to go outside meet interesting people.


00:38:34.770 --> 00:38:51.810

John Hoda: travel around more to Kobe it's been a little bit dicey where I'd meet people for statements in a Starbucks I'm now meeting them for statements in the parking lot of Starbucks but where we sit in our individual cars COP car to car and I sit with the.



00:38:52.950 --> 00:39:00.180

John Hoda: iPad on my lap while I and my portable printer in the seat next to me, but other than that, I would say that.


00:39:02.580 --> 00:39:15.150

John Hoda: I would say anybody that wants to get into the business of fraud investigation private investigation you won't go wrong in terms of having something different, and unique every day, you will be challenged.


00:39:16.200 --> 00:39:19.620

John Hoda: Your mental processes will always be.


00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:37.530

John Hoda: Looking for the clues are the leads that bring you to the next phase of your investigation and you can have a wonderful career and I am proof of that 44 years from when I left the police department.


00:39:38.550 --> 00:39:48.870

John Hoda: will be 4443 right now, and since I left the police department and I don't regret many days honestly I don't feel you know when it was.


00:39:49.350 --> 00:39:57.870

John Hoda: 10 degrees out and I had a you know, on a Saturday and I had to go into a bad neighborhood but you know hey it's part of the job but otherwise no regrets so.


00:39:58.890 --> 00:40:07.020

Kelly Paxton: That is wonderful, truly, and you know the people that listen to the podcast and our guests on the podcast I think they all say that that this is.


00:40:07.350 --> 00:40:11.940

Kelly Paxton: it's a wonderful career yeah it hasn't you know is I'm going to say trough moments, but.


00:40:12.600 --> 00:40:25.050

Kelly Paxton: ups are really, really good and especially when, in the world that we live in, now with technology and being able to connect with so many people so many experts, it just makes it even more interesting, I think.


00:40:25.740 --> 00:40:26.880

John Hoda: Absolutely and.


00:40:28.260 --> 00:40:31.650

John Hoda: it's not getting any less complicated that's for sure.


00:40:34.080 --> 00:40:38.520

John Hoda: Digital has its issues garbage in garbage out, you know.


00:40:40.710 --> 00:40:57.900

John Hoda: Let me look at an original document with the dog eared pages and the scribbles in this in the margins and the sticky notes that nobody was supposed to see doesn't happen in the digital world these days, so I mean it's a little bit different talking to people.


00:40:58.950 --> 00:41:07.410

John Hoda: it's still an art and I think it's always going to be an art and it's going to separate a lot of investigators from just data punchers.


00:41:08.070 --> 00:41:15.660

John Hoda: So the better, you can get at doing interviews, I think the more that you'll and the more that you look at it as an art and a science.


00:41:16.200 --> 00:41:30.720

John Hoda: And, rather than just oh I got to take another statement or are going to take a recorded interview, no, no, the more that you look at it as being a way of how do I help this person go into their memory banks and retrieve all the information that I need for my case.


00:41:32.250 --> 00:41:40.740

John Hoda: And I think that's if you go in with that kind of attitude I think that's where you come out of it being a professional as opposed to just a lead runner.


00:41:41.880 --> 00:41:43.290

John Hoda: yeah yeah okay.


00:41:44.010 --> 00:41:49.260

Kelly Paxton: Thank you so much John and I'm a little scared to be on your podcast but thank you so much.


00:41:50.040 --> 00:41:51.810

John Hoda: I know I'm a.


00:41:52.290 --> 00:42:04.290

John Hoda: I'm a cream puff don't worry about me thank you so much Kelly, I do appreciate the time you had me on today's is wonderful questions I haven't asked answer these questions in many, many years, so it was nice that I got a chance to talk about it, so thank you again.


John is great and I consider myself and the audience to be very lucky to have gotten great investigation, writing, and business advice.  His podcasts are regulars for me and again I am always honored to be on the other side of the microphone so to speak.  Be sure and reach out to him and check out his podcasts and books.  Thank you again.  See you next week!