Welcome to episode 33 of Great Women in Fraud. This week it is my absolute pleasure to have Tom Hardin. If you follow Wall Street you may know him as Tipper X. I have listened to many speakers over the years and Tom stands out. He has taken his story of being a cooperating witness with the FBI and made it so much more. I am honored to consider him a friend and colleague. He has worked and continues to work on reaching more and more audiences around the world. Everyone should hear his story. If you have kids in college or starting their careers you should have them listen. Let’s get going.
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Kelly Paxton: I am so excited today to have Tom Hardin aka tipper X and he's going to talk about Tipper X in just a second. But the reason I'm so excited as I had the absolute pleasure of watching him present at the Shoreline Fraud Conference, I think it was like November 2019 - 2018 or 2019. Everything's crazy, but his story was like goosebumps but then also there's a funny part of the story. There was a snowstorm and he had to come in from London and he had on this blue shark suit.
He started the presentation so well, and he got it going, but then goosebumps so Tom welcome to Great Women in Fraud you're a Great Dude in Fraud, but why don't you give your quick sort of elevator backstory.
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Tom Hardin: Sure thanks for having me on Kelly. It's a pleasure to be here I'm Tom Hardin. About 10 years ago 12 years ago I was also known as Tipper X.
There was a large FBI insider trading investigation primarily involving Wall Street traders that hedge funds and tech company CEOs from Silicon Valley or tech company executives from Silicon Valley, who are tipping information.
On their companies to these hedge fund managers who could trade, the stocks, and so this has been going on for years in the 2000 sort of early to mid 2000s eventually the FBI and the SEC really started to focus on it and built nearly 100 cases at five individuals were charged they used 32 co-operators of those 85 people, so I was one of the key co-operators.
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Tom Hardin: I worked at a small hedge fund in New York, I was 28 years old, had a great job I mean I was a partner and a little hedge fund, which was a great place to be you know your late 20s.
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Tom Hardin: I received inside information on for stocks from another investor we could talk about the rationalization of it, I rationalize you know, everybody else in the industry is doing it this time, you know it's obviously not being prosecuted if some of these big billionaires are doing this, which I was aware of their behavior. I bought small positions in the stocks thinking I'd never get caught, because if these guys are doing it so bad, why would I ever be looked at, and of course I was.
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Tom Hardin: I was caught later by the FBI on the street, they approached me about helping them build some of these bigger cases. I was kind of the low man on the totem pole.
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Tom Hardin: I was the youngest person they charged to the 85 people they charge and my $46,000 which I personally made with one of the lowest again so sort of why did this guy do it, I worked undercover with the FBI two years wearing a body wire, to help them build some cases against bigger people in the industry, I guess, we can't say who I wore a body wire against but
work with them for two years undercover my name came out obviously huge impact on friends and family when this type of situation becomes public to everyone.
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Tom Hardin: You know just huge huge embarrassment just through my career way in my 20s and then a few years later.
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Tom Hardin: The FBI in 2016 called me out of the blue, and I thought oh my God, what are these guys want now what did I do now and.
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Tom Hardin: They asked me to come talk to their rookie agents in the complex financial crime unit in Manhattan about my case.
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Tom Hardin: Just to give some rookie agents, a taste of like what it's like to work with the cooperator and these big cases and how a person.
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Tom Hardin: rationalizes crossing that line and from there a couple FBI agent said, you know there's an opportunity, Tom for people like myself to go out there.
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Tom Hardin: And sort of make the lemonade out of lemons just go out share the story and, to be honest, like, I never had ever any plans to ever share my story I kind of felt like.
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Tom Hardin: You know I'd seen guys do this in the past, like a frank gabbing now or some of the Enron guys it just wasn't something that I felt they were sincere about and.
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Tom Hardin: I felt like I needed to go a different route, but didn't figure I have nothing to lose I really had nothing going on professionally because, once you do something like this your reputation your career is over.
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Tom Hardin: And so I figured I'd just start speaking a little bit about my story and from there it's led to a second career, to be honest I'm doing what I'm doing now and that's how Kelly, and I connected at the conference, a few years ago.
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Kelly Paxton: yeah like I, like you just mentioned, like the Enron guys and Frank Abagnale now he's just you know yeah um we can talk about but I'm your story is so much more relatable I think like when I when I mean I was sitting there in Maryland wasn't Maryland I don't know shoreline and.
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Kelly Paxton: Listening to it, and I have, I have a son in college at the time, and I was just every kid in college needs to listen to this because we have optimism bias that bad things won't happen to us, and that you know you go to a good school and you went to you went to like what word.
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Tom Hardin: yeah Wharton undergrad yeah so Business School for undergrads yeah.
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Kelly Paxton: yeah and were you the first in your family to go to college.
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Tom Hardin: outside of the southern us so yeah I mean the first ever I think, to be Ivy League, you know top top tier school.
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Kelly Paxton: yeah so um I just I heard the story and, like my son, I consider to be a really, really good kid but pressure, and you know in I used to work in finance and then the whole will everyone else is doing it, so I have to ask you right off the BAT is do you watch billions.
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Tom Hardin: Yes, yes, yes.
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Kelly Paxton: What do you.
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Tom Hardin: it's some of the storylines are pretty good, there was a story in the first few seasons, where there was an incident and.
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Tom Hardin: I can't remember the sauna or a steam room that was kind of dicey where a guy was wearing a wire and I think they may have pulled that, from my.
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Tom Hardin: My story I've never connected with the producers, I had a situation where I was wearing a wire in a swimming pool, and so I split up some of the stories are pretty good, but you know it's obviously Hollywood too, so a lot of it's it's stretched but it's not bad.
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Kelly Paxton: Okay, so are you team Bobby or team what's that guy's name and totally spacing.
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Tom Hardin: it's been like a year or two actually since I've watched it.
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Kelly Paxton: The lawyer prosecutor.
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Tom Hardin: Oh yeah I guess I probably shouldn't say that I'm Team Bobby.
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Kelly Paxton: Bobby I am so okay.
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Tom Hardin: Okay yeah yeah.
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Kelly Paxton: yeah because I think that you hold on to a higher standard and whenever his name is I totally you know space to Giamatti guy um.
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Kelly Paxton: He does just as bad if not worse than Bobby I mean Bobby you at least know his quote bad.
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Tom Hardin: yeah that's what happened in some of these cases, there was a guy who now has a big podcast, who was the prosecutor.
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Tom Hardin: In New York City and some of these cases were much more you could probably argue some prosecutorial overreach where's my case was it I knew I was guilty I knew what I did but that's where the prosecutors have.
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Tom Hardin: I think it's called qualified immunity, where they can't be sued if they if they ruin your life so it's kind of eye-opening.
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Kelly Paxton: So it was a Preet Bharara
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Kelly Paxton: Oh okay yeah he just got a new big podcast deal, and it was so funny I was listening to him on another podcast that I won't mention, but they were just like oh my God, they were so starstruck over him and I'm like he's just a lawyer dude.
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Kelly Paxton: You know I don't know, I was a little like yeah.
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Kelly Paxton: So 15 Bobby good to know.
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Kelly Paxton: So it's.
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Kelly Paxton: A little bit of the underdog to where's the other guy was grew up so incredibly privileged.
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Kelly Paxton: right but, but you know his dad is bad, too, so I yeah.
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Kelly Paxton: Okay, we digress um so we talked about this a little bit before a book I'm picturing Michael Lewis, helping you with a book.
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Tom Hardin: I wish, but his fees, a little bit too high for me.
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Tom Hardin: But no I'm working on that now, to be honest, the speaking picked up so fast which I'm not complaining about, then I never really got to the normal sequence of this.
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Tom Hardin: write a book and then go to go out in the speaking circuit, so the speaking has been keeping me busy, which has been great, but I am.
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Tom Hardin: been using the time with Kobe now that work on the book and I really want to get it right, I want to.
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Tom Hardin: Obviously, I have a story to tell, but now I have a few years of sort of talking about my story and relating it to compliance or behavioral ethics today.
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Tom Hardin: So I went to work in some takeaways for the 2020s you know how can we relate my story and keep it relevant every year keep it fresh and keep those takeaways you know out there for people.
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Kelly Paxton: Well, this is another thing that I noticed during your presentation is shoreline is it wasn't just your story you really dig deep and you just mentioned it into behavioral science and compliance and.
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Kelly Paxton: It was funny because, like this was two years ago, I think that I told you ethical systems was having a conference like a one day conference in New York, and I was like well you're in Jersey, you might want to go.
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Kelly Paxton: yeah, then you showed up and to me that showed such like your thirst for you know the behavioral science and why good people do bad things and why bad people do good things.
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Tom Hardin: yeah it's great I actually got to be a guest speaker at for the Jonathan Haidt’s classes, I didn't my you.
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Kelly Paxton: Earlier this year, so really great.
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Tom Hardin: Connected with them great people but yeah so I really immerse myself, more so than just hey here's my interesting story.
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Tom Hardin: that's it, I want, I want to stay relevant with like what's going on why people good people do bad things and to your point about before about sort of the overconfidence or the over optimism bias.
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Tom Hardin: I think that plays into a lot of what we see out there, people think oh I'm a good person I could never do something bad and the goal of my presentation is just like.
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Tom Hardin: You can stay in the good people bucket, but you have to have an awareness that you might be prey to.
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Tom Hardin: rationalizations you could be prey to something called loss aversion where, as you know, we fear losses more than we look.
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Tom Hardin: You know, making money off the games that type of thing, and if people have this healthy paranoia about the biases that are out there.
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Tom Hardin: it's something I wish I knew about when I started my career and it's something that there was a course in college, I could have taken maybe that would have stayed in the back of my mind, a little bit more.
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Kelly Paxton: Well, so, then the next question is you speak to CPA and lawyers and finance professionals and universities and I'm hoping you're going to say that universities are your favorite audience because maybe you're affecting them the most.
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Tom Hardin: Oh yes, yeah absolutely they are and to be honest, I don't think one universities ever paid me to speak because it's sort of I guess they go back and can we pay this guy they're not sure.
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Tom Hardin: And that's that's just something I'd want to do, always forever, I mean, as long as I can do this always taught to universities, whether it's.
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Tom Hardin: Paid or not so relevant for me really talking to students that say hey I sat in your seat, I was once an up and coming person, just so focused on.
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Tom Hardin: Getting my career started making a bunch of money, like that's not what it's all about so when you're 1819 and now I'm 43 like you know, everybody I guess between that age my age now your priorities changed but really.
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Tom Hardin: going through my own personal crucible my priorities changed now, and so, when I talked to them, one of my main takeaways from my presentation is that you're the average of the five people.
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Tom Hardin: With whom you surround yourself and that can be cliche but for me it's really serious like I started my career, I knew who the bad people were I knew who the good people were.
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Tom Hardin: And I kind of took three good people in too bad people were in my five people and it's one of the people who I knew was up to no good who ultimately.
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Tom Hardin: took me on these trades, and so I don't think we can start early enough with people in their lives, high school students I haven't talked to you like you're the average of those five people you surround yourself with take it seriously.
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Kelly Paxton: yeah you know I use that same a lot and I kept like who says it was Jim Rohn.
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Tom Hardin: You said, is it okay I've never, never.
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Tom Hardin: find it okay.
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Kelly Paxton: yeah it's Jim Rohn who said it and I totally get that and.
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Kelly Paxton: So you kind of knew two people weren't great, and I also remember in your story you kind of you paused so there's the system one and we're both Dan economy and fans.
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Kelly Paxton: right one and system two you did pause and you did reach out to a couple of the good people.
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Tom Hardin: Right no you're absolutely right, so I didn't act.
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Tom Hardin: You know instantaneously so I received this information through a phone call saying this private equity firm was going to buy this publicly listed company in a few weeks, this date this price.
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Tom Hardin: You know this, this is when it's going to happen so that's pretty blatant information it's almost like the movie Wall Street where they talk about blue horseshoe if anybody remembers that like it's happening.
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Tom Hardin: In a few weeks, so it sounded like it was actually happening, but I didn't act on it, then, because it actually sounded like oh my God, this is.
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Tom Hardin: I think I think this is illegal, if I trade on this, but then like you said I call to friends in the industry, who I thought highly of and said hey.
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Tom Hardin: I'm thinking about at this point, actually I'd already bought some because I rationalize that we just buy a little bit.
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Tom Hardin: And I call these two friends and said I bought a little bit of this, I heard this it might be a rumor it's happening in a few weeks I really have no idea.
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Tom Hardin: And they said, you know what that doesn't even sound real I'll buy some to so by bringing these guys across the line it's something that a professor, I believe it's princess could you know talks about self-serving altruism where.
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Tom Hardin: We can view our illicit behavior is altruistic if we're helping people out so that was a part of it, too, with me bring people into the behavior into the conduct will actually thought were great guys.
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Kelly Paxton: yeah yeah oh my God we are such.
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Tom Hardin: behavioral science, we have a.
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Kelly Paxton: Name dropping for.
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Kelly Paxton: Danny Kahnemann and all that sort of thing.
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Kelly Paxton: But yeah I mean.
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Kelly Paxton: it's a slow it's a slow step over the line.
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Tom Hardin: It is, it is your right so everybody if they're see if he's listening, you know there's there's rationalization everybody's familiar with, but for me it was really like.
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Tom Hardin: When I placed this trade and another thing to talk about actually also one pivotal moment.
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Tom Hardin: Is I was investing initially with a three to five year time horizon like just find the best stocks to own the next three to five years don't worry about the short term.
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Tom Hardin: Being a small firm we had lost money to have our first three months, which we didn't technically lose money just the portfolio the stocks went down was if you don't sell you don't you don't lose and so.
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Tom Hardin: My boss came into my office one day and said Tom we're a small firm.
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Tom Hardin: I know we're investing longer term, but to be honest we're not going to be around much longer if we have any more down months like start looking for opportunities.
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Tom Hardin: To make money every month and the ambiguity and that message from the boss to say do whatever it takes, but basically he's saying like don't tell me how you do it.
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Tom Hardin: I mean, how many times have we seen that over the years that other company so when she calls me with this information.
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Tom Hardin: I'm just thinking like well the boss said look for shorter term opportunities, he knows this behavior is going on the industry, I should know what's going on.
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Tom Hardin: What the heck out by a little bit of stock in case it happens it'll go up a little bit, but we're not going to make a ton of money, but it'll be additive.
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Tom Hardin: To that month so going from longer term, the short term, like short termism is still a major problem in finance in other industries like we're just focused on the quarter and not long term reputation sometimes.
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Kelly Paxton: yeah yeah so I just finished the new the newest book about Madoff talks have you read that yeah.
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Tom Hardin: I have not read that it's on my we talked about our book stocks beforehand so yeah that's why yeah.
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Kelly Paxton: yeah you know so made off he just you know what are your thoughts on him May he rest in peace.
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Tom Hardin: yeah I know it's hard for me to.
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Tom Hardin: relate to that story, I never went to judge anybody else in my situation everybody has their own sort of sort of rationalizations but.
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Tom Hardin: With me it was easy to tell myself that I wasn't hurting anybody, because with insider trading.
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Tom Hardin: Like it's sometimes professors will call it a victimless crime there's actually a big White Paper on why it shouldn't be illegal and that's not My message is all.
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Tom Hardin: But you can kind of go down the rabbit hole if I'm buying the stock before everybody else, nobody gets hurt and so with me it's it's easy to rationalize victimless crime with him when he's taking money from people you know in this Community.
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Tom Hardin: You know from his from the synagogue like taking life savings and doing it it's just harder for me to.
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Tom Hardin: To get my arms around that like a good guy going bad it's that's always when I struggled with um.
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Tom Hardin: I got a mutual person we probably know eugene soul just wrote the book why they did it and several stories I could relate to from executives, but the main off was the one I kind of struggle with like.
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Tom Hardin: You know if you know you're taking somebody's life so that's a tough one, I like to think I wouldn't be able to do that, but who am I to say.
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Kelly Paxton: Well, what if you had a sick kid.
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Tom Hardin: Sick yeah well that's right.
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Kelly Paxton: yeah that's where you go to the fraud triangle and everything, so we both actually sat at the same table with eugene salts at that conference, which was so cool.
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Kelly Paxton: that's right, you know he's got he's got this one thing and it's not in the book, but I found it on YouTube he calls it, the spouse test we're like if you have this.
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Kelly Paxton: You know question, do you talk to your spouse and I actually had a case where that the guy literally came in on Mondays like I talked to my wife and she's like you got to come clean, what about your wife like do when did she know and you're still married.
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Tom Hardin: married 16 years today as we're recording this so well, thank you, thank you yeah.
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Tom Hardin: So when did she know, I think the FBI approached me on the street about eight months after my fourth alyssa trade.
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Tom Hardin: And that was on a Tuesday morning I remember, they approached me.
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Tom Hardin: They suit they said they knew I was down in Atlanta visiting my baby nephew for his baptism like they know everything about your life they're tracking you for weeks to see if they can, if I'm somebody they can flip.
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Tom Hardin: And so, that was a Tuesday morning I waited till Friday after work, so I was having panic attacks that's what so she knew something was up.
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Tom Hardin: And it was a Friday, after work young couple New York City before we're going out to dinner having a glass of wine in the apartment.
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Tom Hardin: sort of you know how was your week and I said, well, let me go first, I know I have a better story than anything to happen, the weekend I sat her down and said no, I absolutely very serious to tell you it's going to impact our life in a big way.
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Tom Hardin: And so, she had that shocked expression, and I said, you know, I was approached by the FBI earlier this week about a few trades that made last year.
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Tom Hardin: And I think I'm in big trouble and she was almost um I don't want to say relieved, but she was expecting maybe for me to say hey I've been cheating on you, or something like.
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Tom Hardin: infidelity but like it was almost like holy holy crap say that again that's not what I was expecting at all, and I said it again, and she said.
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Tom Hardin: Well, you didn't do anything to hurt me that's the way she took it, but it certainly wasn't easy on our marriage at all is very, very tough but.
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Tom Hardin: I can't find this Stat and I've seen other people say it, that only 15% of marriages survive when a spouse gets a felony you may you may know, the Stat I'm not sure I saw 15% somewhere, a few years ago, and so.
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Tom Hardin: we're in the future.
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Tom Hardin: I'll have to often find it for the show notes I'll look for it, I have it somewhere in my speaking notes I don't know if I sourced like 15% of marriages survive this situation and so we're one of the 15% is certainly wasn't easy but we've made it to 16 today so.
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Tom Hardin: yeah it's something that she stood by me and so that was actually good for me.
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Tom Hardin: To get through this because it was my personal hell and to have her there as basically my shrink I never talked to a psychiatrist.
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Tom Hardin: When I was wearing these body wires on these people in the industry, not only for what I did, but actually going through the cooperation with the FBI boring, the body wires certainly wasn't easy, but she was always there to talk about it so.
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Kelly Paxton: Well, and I remember another story that you said you became an endurance runner from all of this.
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Tom Hardin: yeah so cooperated like through 2008 2009 and recover body wire I wasn't sitting still 2015 so I had all this time in my life to wait to be sentence didn't like.
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Tom Hardin: I couldn't work because you just Google me and tipper X is everywhere so that's a nonstarter with pretty much anybody my situation it's hard to find work.
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Tom Hardin: So I just focused on my health I had swelled to well over 200 pounds by Putin so that's that's really big for my frame.
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Tom Hardin: And one day had trouble carrying my daughter up the stairs I thought that was having a pulmonary embolism.
00:20:47.250 --> 00:20:57.840
Tom Hardin: And went to went to the doctor he gave me the scared straight talk about this is just not good for you, like you, must be going under a lot of stress sort of thinking doctor, you have no idea, stressing going under.
00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:04.080
Tom Hardin: And he's like you got to start doing something about it, so my wife again here she is saving me sign me up for a five K.
00:21:04.740 --> 00:21:09.810
Tom Hardin: And, and that first five K she beat me pushing our baby in the stroller but that that lit the fire.
00:21:10.260 --> 00:21:17.730
Tom Hardin: I don't think she knew was gonna like like the fire it did, that I went from five k's to half marathons marathons the hundred mile ultra marathons and so, at least for me.
00:21:18.510 --> 00:21:25.200
Tom Hardin: The running was an outlet for me, I could just control getting in the best shape I could that type of thing, but to be honest, like looking back.
00:21:25.890 --> 00:21:32.280
Tom Hardin: I think I overdid it like I wasn't dealing with what I really needed to deal with, I would just go out and run and not have to deal with things so.
00:21:32.790 --> 00:21:38.640
Tom Hardin: I think some people do this if they're really into endurance sports where you can overdo it so there's there's a fine balance I have with it today.
00:21:39.210 --> 00:21:45.390
Tom Hardin: Where I'm not doing it all the time because there's other things to deal with in life, you know so but at that time, I think it was not that good.
00:21:46.320 --> 00:21:54.120
Kelly Paxton: yeah yeah that's that that story was you know again the whole goosebumps sort of thing so yeah.
00:21:55.410 --> 00:22:03.330
Kelly Paxton: This is kind of a weird question because normally I have you know sort of experts in like Open Source intelligence and things like that.
00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:15.150
Kelly Paxton: Like What would you do if you hadn't gone into finance is a career is there some like career that you know you had thought of like what would you pick as a career.
00:22:15.780 --> 00:22:21.870
Tom Hardin: I mean, to be honest, I was so focused on maybe I was picking a finance or accounting so.
00:22:22.470 --> 00:22:35.370
Tom Hardin: it's kind of a dull answer but I probably would have been a CPA if I wasn't in going into finance so either something in finance and accounting, I was up that that part of my brain kind of the math part was always what what drew me and what interested me so.
00:22:36.420 --> 00:22:50.580
Tom Hardin: To be honest, it would probably just be in the accounting field, I thought about maybe going to law school before, when I was 18 but after after first year of you know, working on the student stock fund at wharton I mean that's all I wanted to do after I did that was my passion.
00:22:51.540 --> 00:22:56.880
Kelly Paxton: Well, so you're really into behavioral science, I can see you doing something with behavioral science.
00:22:57.090 --> 00:23:07.920
Tom Hardin: Well, I am today, I guess, to some degree I'm learning as much as I can, as you as you are yourself just reading all these books and trying to to make it relatable to people to groups, but I wish I knew at least had some sense of.
00:23:08.970 --> 00:23:16.560
Tom Hardin: You know, some economists works back in college if he would have been a professor, maybe that's that those biases understanding that would have stayed with me but.
00:23:18.090 --> 00:23:25.590
Tom Hardin: But yeah I find the whole field fascinating today, even if I wasn't a convicted fraudster and do this now I think I'd still find it fascinating because.
00:23:26.040 --> 00:23:34.830
Tom Hardin: You know, as we were talking about before Danny Commons, you know people from every field can take something from it and he's very it's very interesting work and what he does, and how it applies everywhere.
00:23:35.670 --> 00:23:45.420
Kelly Paxton: yeah yeah well you know we just aren't rational if we were rational you wouldn't have made those trades, we would you know put money in our retirement account from our first job at.
00:23:45.810 --> 00:23:55.410
Kelly Paxton: Age 16 so but we aren't rational and I was listening to economists on the armchair expert last night and the loss of version I had forgotten it's two to one.
00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:06.990
Kelly Paxton: So it's you know if you think you're going to gain 150 but you could lose 100 that doesn't work, but if you think you're going to gain 200 and lose 100 it works.
00:24:07.350 --> 00:24:13.410
Tom Hardin: yeah and we see loss aversion a lot if anybody's familiar, I think it was probably 20 years ago there was a big tax shelter.
00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:20.550
Tom Hardin: Fraud situation with a bunch of the CPA is the big four accounting firms are just fresh in my mind, because I've been doing some training for CPA is.
00:24:21.180 --> 00:24:24.240
Tom Hardin: And one of the people, he was a partner when the big four firms said.
00:24:24.840 --> 00:24:32.040
Tom Hardin: He was just worried about losing certain clients it wasn't about him lighting his pockets with anything why they created these fraudulent tax shelters.
00:24:32.460 --> 00:24:40.410
Tom Hardin: It was more about if he didn't do what the other big for firm would take his clients, is it was like, how do we not lose our clients, we need to cross the line, because it seems like again.
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:48.210
Tom Hardin: Other big four firms are doing it, and they were all doing it, and several people went the President so you're right, we see that a lot, where I don't want to lose this so I'm going to.
00:24:49.080 --> 00:24:51.480
Tom Hardin: cover up maybe a mistake, I made which we see.
00:24:51.900 --> 00:24:56.580
Tom Hardin: I've seen that in my corporate work you make a mistake, you don't raise your hand you try to cover it up and it escalates.
00:24:56.820 --> 00:25:01.440
Tom Hardin: Not to maybe fraud, but maybe somebody gets fired from a job, because if you've covered enough you can't be trusted the more.
00:25:01.830 --> 00:25:10.350
Tom Hardin: More so than let me, let me cut the line or cross that line because I have a game to make that's actually less, as you say, to the one less less likely to happen and loss aversion.
00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:27.390
Kelly Paxton: yeah well area only did a study recently, and I think it's out with JPMorgan that one of you know, he enlightened companies and culture, and one of the biggest predictors of success was if someone could come forward when they made a mistake.
00:25:27.870 --> 00:25:36.030
Tom Hardin: Yes, that's I talk about this, I talked about before there's misconduct in companies there's something in the company's culture that's going to give you a red flag.
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:43.650
Tom Hardin: And in finance in other industries, if you have a blame culture, if people are blamed for mistakes and.
00:25:44.130 --> 00:25:55.410
Tom Hardin: You can't use mistakes to actually learn from them like one industry who's great that learning from mistakes as airlines, I mean Boeing is what it is, but otherwise it's like that's a whole culture usually like you make a mistake, everybody learns from it.
00:25:56.610 --> 00:26:06.000
Tom Hardin: and other industries that's not the case it's like a blame culture, and if you have a blame culture where people are afraid to raise their hand you're going to have misconduct issues in the future, I can almost guarantee it.
00:26:07.500 --> 00:26:17.640
Kelly Paxton: yeah the yeah the finger pointing and then just ducking for cover I went I was fascinated that he was able to correlate that to investment returns so.
00:26:17.730 --> 00:26:18.960
Tom Hardin: I'll have to check that out okay.
00:26:18.990 --> 00:26:31.290
Kelly Paxton: yeah I believe it's JP Morgan I'll look and, if I can find it I'll put it in the show notes so I'm what is a common myths about your profession and I'm going to say finance that you want to debunk.
00:26:32.250 --> 00:26:40.680
Tom Hardin: yeah common myth um I guess like with hedge funds there's a common myth, I mean I guess billions might contribute to it a little bit that.
00:26:41.730 --> 00:26:49.710
Tom Hardin: You know, there are more risky than traditional investments they're unregulated and secretive and that's all not sure I mean there's so much secretive but.
00:26:51.300 --> 00:26:57.750
Tom Hardin: You know that they are regulated they're actually not more risky than traditional investments, over time, they outperform traditional investments.
00:26:58.800 --> 00:27:03.150
Tom Hardin: There are some good people it's not it's not all bad people and my fear was.
00:27:04.320 --> 00:27:19.200
Tom Hardin: Not my fear, but like if people see by talk who aren't from my industry, they might think everybody in the hedge fund industry was doing was Thomas doing and I guess, I have to check myself, because I see one of my rationalizations was everyone was doing it, but my my world, as I said.
00:27:20.370 --> 00:27:32.460
Tom Hardin: Two fifths of it was doing the wrong thing so that was my world like Okay, these people are doing it, but we step out 99% of the industry in general is doing the right thing, so Those are some of the misperceptions it's not all.
00:27:34.290 --> 00:27:37.080
Tom Hardin: for lack of a better word do she type of people there are some good people.
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:38.940
Tom Hardin: There yeah.
00:27:39.570 --> 00:27:41.580
Kelly Paxton: Oh, my gosh okay so.
00:27:42.930 --> 00:27:48.150
Kelly Paxton: What do you think of like crypto currency and Elon musk in dos coins.
00:27:48.360 --> 00:27:57.390
Tom Hardin: yeah wow I know to be honest it's funny like I've never been able to have a fidelity like IRA in my name so.
00:27:57.990 --> 00:28:08.520
Tom Hardin: I don't want to, but I have a significant I mean, I have a significant waiting towards bitcoin and had been for a few years, so this has been a we're talking now with bitcoins been cut in half the last week.
00:28:10.890 --> 00:28:18.030
Tom Hardin: With bitcoin I think it's like just a it's a personal hedge against inflation, if the if the government keeps printing all this money again I hope bitcoin will.
00:28:18.510 --> 00:28:28.320
Tom Hardin: will start to have some store of value but Elon musk with one tweet cut bitcoin in half dose coin I just think it's like it's just people's play money, hopefully it's not.
00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:39.540
Tom Hardin: it's something out there, that that what we're seeing now more and more in finances sort of these meme situations where you had mean stocks, a couple months ago we're talking in January with game stop and AMC people on reddit.
00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:46.440
Tom Hardin: I really hope people are just putting their play money in there and that we don't have a situation where somebody put their life savings and.
00:28:46.860 --> 00:28:52.920
Tom Hardin: Those coin at the top, and then I don't lose all their money, I hope, that's not happening from what I've been reading on reddit it's like people's pizza money.
00:28:53.340 --> 00:29:04.710
Tom Hardin: That they're having fun with, but I do worry that like young people aren't learning the right thing about personal investing by going on reddit finding the next AMC buying those coin watching financial tech talk.
00:29:06.600 --> 00:29:08.880
Tom Hardin: But my 11 year old I mean she has a.
00:29:09.990 --> 00:29:17.790
Tom Hardin: We have $1,000 in a Robin Hood account just so she can get familiar with stock trading and she's made a bunch of money for her on those coins, what do I know.
00:29:18.690 --> 00:29:24.000
Kelly Paxton: My God that's so funny okay I'm gonna make a suggestion here you take her off of Robin Hood and put her on public.
00:29:24.300 --> 00:29:30.570
Tom Hardin: yeah no you're right you're right Robin Hood is not a good, not a good place what I'm talking about you know proper governance and culture.
00:29:31.860 --> 00:29:34.740
Tom Hardin: That yeah they have a lot of other thinking to do before they go public.
00:29:36.210 --> 00:29:36.630
Tom Hardin: yeah.
00:29:37.140 --> 00:29:44.340
Tom Hardin: But she was telling me she saw the dose coin videos on tik tok it's so easy, and it was so I think she made 10 or 15 bucks I don't know what she made.
00:29:44.670 --> 00:29:50.220
Tom Hardin: it's funny how the 11 year olds can tell, I used to be in the industry, you know I shouldn't what I'm doing but.
00:29:51.300 --> 00:30:00.900
Tom Hardin: it's a new generation but I worry that people are getting bad habits, you know early in their life about investing or you know, making money because it's all going to come back and hurt people and then usually so.
00:30:01.560 --> 00:30:10.350
Kelly Paxton: yeah I didn't realize bitcoin was in half, I knew it I knew it dropped quite a bit, but I didn't realize it was in half, well, thankfully, I have not had any of that.
00:30:10.350 --> 00:30:15.960
Tom Hardin: So good okay I luckily I got it early enough where, as long as it doesn't go to zero, I guess i'll be okay.
00:30:17.250 --> 00:30:23.220
Kelly Paxton: Well, my son has a friend who like literally is you know just made, hundreds of thousands.
00:30:23.250 --> 00:30:23.550
Tom Hardin: Oh yeah.
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:29.400
Kelly Paxton: Like you know he just spent the month in Jamaica like wow.
00:30:29.610 --> 00:30:32.100
Tom Hardin: there's only figured out, I mean, as long as you get out yeah there's.
00:30:33.300 --> 00:30:41.730
Kelly Paxton: um so what What do you do to stay on top of your your growth like.
00:30:41.820 --> 00:30:42.570
Tom Hardin: You said you have a.
00:30:43.050 --> 00:30:48.330
Kelly Paxton: Book reader but then you mentioned read it read it it's just golden.
00:30:48.780 --> 00:30:50.220
Tom Hardin: yeah a.
00:30:51.540 --> 00:30:54.840
Tom Hardin: God yeah just look for examples read.
00:30:56.160 --> 00:31:02.760
Tom Hardin: One book actually that's not talked about a lot that I've been enjoying it's a really quick read it's called the ethical executive people are interested.
00:31:03.840 --> 00:31:16.170
Tom Hardin: By a professor at Stanford named Robert awake each Oh, why K and it's really like 100 pages of over 50 behavioral science sort of ethical traps.
00:31:16.620 --> 00:31:23.100
Tom Hardin: And so he'll he'll name the trap whole damn the bias or other bits from common and he just gives you an example in the workplace, where you see it.
00:31:23.850 --> 00:31:30.960
Tom Hardin: As far as something condensed if somebody really wants to get into hundreds of pages of content or whatever, like the ethical executive is a good one.
00:31:31.770 --> 00:31:33.420
Kelly Paxton: I'm going to order it today.
00:31:33.570 --> 00:31:34.170
Tom Hardin: yeah Robert.
00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:38.310
Tom Hardin: I haven't ever seen that one talked about it's just my Amazon.
00:31:39.330 --> 00:31:54.360
Tom Hardin: You know, serve That to me is something I might like so I always look at that watching YouTube lectures, as we both do listening to podcasts our mutual friend Christian high has a great podcast behavioral grooves I know you were you were on that one or.
00:31:54.870 --> 00:31:56.580
Kelly Paxton: I I've taped it is okay.
00:31:56.580 --> 00:32:05.280
Tom Hardin: yeah yeah so that that's a good one to I'm just always trying to get fresh examples of like we're talking about loss aversion or these biases so.
00:32:05.760 --> 00:32:12.300
Tom Hardin: Just to show people what I'm talking about my story is going to be timeless it's just not going to be my story insider trading and to be something else.
00:32:12.930 --> 00:32:22.050
Kelly Paxton: yeah yeah well that's awesome um so have you ever thought like of I'm.
00:32:23.220 --> 00:32:36.900
Kelly Paxton: Like Have you ever thought of doing something like I'm gonna joke be being a poet, or when all of this happened did was there a time where like you're saying I'm gonna open a restaurant or.
00:32:37.950 --> 00:32:42.090
Kelly Paxton: anything like that, but I mean you clearly love math and finance and.
00:32:42.360 --> 00:32:42.810
00:32:44.280 --> 00:32:53.190
Tom Hardin: When this happened, my attorney said Tom you're going to have to start your own company that's what people do in your situation you know nobody's gonna hire you and if somebody hired you Tom.
00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:58.320
Tom Hardin: This thing is always going to be over your head, so if something goes wrong at your new employer tom's going to be blame you know so.
00:32:58.860 --> 00:33:02.580
Tom Hardin: I never really looked at, I would apply for jobs, it was a non starter.
00:33:03.060 --> 00:33:10.530
Tom Hardin: So I looked at what could I do that wouldn't require a lot of personal capital, because I wasn't generating any income, so I needed to save and squander away anything I had.
00:33:11.010 --> 00:33:20.280
Tom Hardin: To get through it, so I looked at doing a drop shipping business of Amazon, so what I would do is order items from alibaba like placements for $1.
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:28.830
Tom Hardin: and sell them a brand them and sell them on Amazon for $15 and I started scaling that up my basement was crazy because of the drop shipping on Amazon.
00:33:29.370 --> 00:33:40.080
Tom Hardin: And then eventually like Chinese suppliers started hijacking my Amazon listing so that didn't go well and, to be honest, like a month later, the FBI call to speak so.
00:33:41.430 --> 00:33:46.380
Tom Hardin: You know, maybe somebody was looking over me or something and got me this direction, but I never would have thought about.
00:33:46.890 --> 00:33:52.050
Tom Hardin: Public speaking I was always an introverted analytical person, you know, an analyst doing finance and spreadsheets like.
00:33:52.980 --> 00:33:59.310
Tom Hardin: Not only that, when you don't want to talk in front of people who wants to talk about you know the worst situation in my life, you know it's it's.
00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:07.590
Tom Hardin: It one of my favorite quotes is I'm like you have to put you can't start the second chapter of your life until you put the first chapter behind you.
00:34:08.970 --> 00:34:10.470
Tom Hardin: And I think actually butchered that.
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:15.480
Tom Hardin: Something like that, so I look at that, too, like I'm starting the second chapter.
00:34:15.630 --> 00:34:24.180
Tom Hardin: With what I'm doing now, with the ethics, training and my story, but also every week I'm literally living, the first reliving the first chapter of my career which isn't great so.
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:32.370
Tom Hardin: But, for me, I think I'm in a headspace mentally now I can do this and reflect on it and kind of say that was one point in time and here's what I'm doing today.
00:34:33.120 --> 00:34:39.600
Tom Hardin: here's the quote you can't start the next chapter of your life if you keep rereading the last one, so I have that one actually on my desk.
00:34:40.620 --> 00:34:45.180
Tom Hardin: that's one of my favorite models, but it's sort of I'm juxtaposed right because, like one part of my mind.
00:34:45.600 --> 00:34:58.950
Tom Hardin: I'm reliving the last one every week when I give my talk with the other part, me going forward is going through that process and making other people today take something away from that or hopefully learn something that they can apply to their work so that's that's the goal at least.
00:34:59.520 --> 00:35:11.730
Kelly Paxton: And I will tell the audience, and this is not to suck up to Tom at all is, I see a lot of speakers and honestly your presentation is the one that sticks with me.
00:35:12.150 --> 00:35:13.140
Tom Hardin: Okay, thank you for saying that.
00:35:13.410 --> 00:35:25.740
Kelly Paxton: it's like he says he's an introvert and I could see how you could be an introvert but, again, your work that you've done with behavioral science and analyzing like you know how good people make bad choices was just.
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:32.040
Kelly Paxton: If you get a chance to see him in will put your like sizzle reel in the.
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:33.240
Tom Hardin: toaster thinking.
00:35:33.450 --> 00:35:40.650
Kelly Paxton: yeah it's just like you're a great speaker you're a natural speaker you joined NSA didn't you.
00:35:40.830 --> 00:35:44.940
Tom Hardin: I did that's right we saw each other, I guess that the last time we can all get together 2019.
00:35:45.060 --> 00:35:46.170
Tom Hardin: But that conference yeah.
00:35:46.590 --> 00:35:50.490
Kelly Paxton: So what I really enjoy is like you have worked at your craft.
00:35:51.990 --> 00:36:00.270
Kelly Paxton: lot of people that become speakers and they don't actually work at the craft of speaking and you've really done that so huge kudos.
00:36:00.270 --> 00:36:05.730
Tom Hardin: Thank you so much, sometimes when they get hired people just think I'm telling the story and then afterwards it's so nice to hear like.
00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:19.290
Tom Hardin: That was amazing story, but also the work you know people can see the work I've been putting in, as you said, to just becoming a master of what I'm doing now, and how it might relate in other areas that's all I spend my time on, to be honest, so thank you for that.
00:36:20.340 --> 00:36:23.010
Kelly Paxton: Do you mentor young professionals.
00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:38.880
Tom Hardin: um it's a good question I don't um I'll occasionally get questions I guess from neighbors friends who you know, are going to college and that type of thing, but I don't do it as much it's still a little dicey for me.
00:36:39.900 --> 00:36:50.880
Tom Hardin: Like what I'll do for for Pen is I'll interview, the high school seniors to do the alumni interview but I'm totally upfront beforehand, like this is what happened to me and.
00:36:52.050 --> 00:37:00.030
Tom Hardin: be happy to talk about it and it's actually good to have those conversations with people but it's still a bit dicey for me reputation for me to be out there if people haven't heard.
00:37:00.540 --> 00:37:07.830
Tom Hardin: My story for me and just read about it in the paper that's still one of the stigmas I have him always good to have is convicted felon I mean most people would just Google me.
00:37:08.340 --> 00:37:16.020
Tom Hardin: convicted felon and that's something I have to battle, like all the time, like I'll walk into a room and half the crowd really is frowning because they're like, why do we hire this guy.
00:37:16.620 --> 00:37:21.690
Tom Hardin: And then, at the end it's so cool when eventually I could see the body language change and try to win that part of the crowd over.
00:37:22.290 --> 00:37:29.520
Tom Hardin: And at the end have a nice conversation about hey I was expecting you to be like this Tom and actually you were completely in a good way not like I was expecting and.
00:37:29.970 --> 00:37:34.410
Tom Hardin: Now I'm reflecting on myself quite a bit so that's always the goal in this talk, but it can be weird.
00:37:35.190 --> 00:37:45.390
Tom Hardin: Going into a speaking situation where half the crowd does it thinks they don't want to hear from me, because this guy just going to be, you know sad sack telling a sad story and why, why are we paying this guy you know so.
00:37:46.500 --> 00:37:52.440
Kelly Paxton: Well, I say that everyone should listen to felons and their stories and I have a colleague who just.
00:37:52.620 --> 00:38:01.080
Kelly Paxton: Like he and I sat and watched Sam and tar and Sam was up there very much you don't know if I'm not ripping you off right now, and you know he's just got that sort of personality.
00:38:01.470 --> 00:38:12.270
Kelly Paxton: And my friends like I would never see him again and I'm like you have to learn from it, and when you come in you're vulnerable like that there are people that are going to be really, really rough on you.
00:38:12.570 --> 00:38:26.760
Kelly Paxton: And I have heard, because I lose gigs out to like Frank Abagnale or Richard this be strong and um The thing is, is, I think the audiences are much tougher in reviews on people's stories like yours.
00:38:27.240 --> 00:38:28.140
Tom Hardin: Yes, yes.
00:38:29.340 --> 00:38:39.060
Tom Hardin: In the beginning, you know I had somebody stand up with me once, when I was growing up when my first speaking engagements but you just gotta you just gotta shake that off and look, you know, this is really all I have.
00:38:40.530 --> 00:38:45.090
Tom Hardin: The beginning this was really all I could do to make a living, to try to get my life back in order and now.
00:38:45.570 --> 00:38:51.810
Tom Hardin: What I've seen in the feedback has been fantastic much, much more than I ever could have anticipated and it's led me directions and.
00:38:52.380 --> 00:38:55.830
Tom Hardin: You know meeting people like yourself that probably never would have connected otherwise and so.
00:38:56.790 --> 00:39:06.420
Tom Hardin: I feel like at least a making a difference and whenever a client says or somebody from the audience will email me and say I will never forget that that's kind of the idea, so it kind of feels like.
00:39:07.830 --> 00:39:13.590
Tom Hardin: I feel like I'm doing some good work today, I mean I can't change the past I can't change the four trades I made I can't change what I did when I was 29.
00:39:14.190 --> 00:39:25.260
Tom Hardin: But I have so much more my life to go and the opportunity to to to not go to my grave with for stock tickers on the headstone to say hey this happened, but this also happened the rest of his life so that's the idea.
00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:27.720
Kelly Paxton: Do you know the nine ender rule.
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:45.720
Kelly Paxton: No oh my gosh I just realized, you said 29 So if you have a burn if you're on a nine birthdays 2939 49 you are much more likely to run a marathon to have an extramarital affair, like it's because it's the end of a decade.
00:39:45.990 --> 00:39:46.500
Tom Hardin: So I.
00:39:46.530 --> 00:39:49.020
Kelly Paxton: wonder if that affected you interesting.
00:39:49.110 --> 00:39:51.930
Tom Hardin: Oh interesting a 29 yeah it could have.
00:39:53.250 --> 00:39:55.260
Tom Hardin: I got six more years until my next nine so.
00:39:56.490 --> 00:39:58.830
Kelly Paxton: When my husband was 59 I'm like dude.
00:39:59.130 --> 00:40:00.780
Kelly Paxton: you're in a nine and a year.
00:40:04.110 --> 00:40:15.120
Kelly Paxton: I think I got that from one of the behavioral scientists like they studied like the marathon you know rate for 29 and 39 and I ran my first marathon at 39 I wanted to.
00:40:15.300 --> 00:40:15.840
Tom Hardin: Oh wow.
00:40:15.930 --> 00:40:17.250
Kelly Paxton: And, before I did 40.
00:40:17.700 --> 00:40:19.110
Tom Hardin: yeah that's interesting wow.
00:40:19.470 --> 00:40:24.720
Kelly Paxton: yeah so maybe maybe that is why it was the nine enter rule for you, I don't know.
00:40:25.050 --> 00:40:26.700
Tom Hardin: It could be I'll put that in my taco car yeah.
00:40:29.820 --> 00:40:39.030
Kelly Paxton: Oh, my gosh so um we talked about billions just briefly, but I like to ask is there anything you're pinching these days like on NetFlix or that.
00:40:39.420 --> 00:40:53.130
Tom Hardin: Oh wow um as a family my kids are 11 and nine, now we usually it's so funny now because when I was a kid family watch TV together and now we're all on four devices, but the one we just watched all together was shits creek on NetFlix.
00:40:53.490 --> 00:41:02.040
Tom Hardin: yeah I mean that's like when all the awards, and that was that was pretty great and my wife and I are also watching the Formula one documentary on NetFlix.
00:41:03.030 --> 00:41:13.890
Tom Hardin: that's really interesting I mean I never really was really in the car racing but the behind the scenes of those athletes, the racecar drivers, this is a pretty interesting show so for Formula one I think it's called a netflix.
00:41:14.910 --> 00:41:16.770
Kelly Paxton: yeah have you watched Lupin.
00:41:19.110 --> 00:41:32.460
Kelly Paxton: You gotta watch loop and fresh and he's so good, and I think the second it came out in like January, like five episodes left on a cliffhanger and I think the second part is coming out in July.
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:47.580
Kelly Paxton: Okay, I mean it's different it's a he's a I don't know he's a con but it's there's also the good guy bad guy sort of thing so lupin I would recommend lupin so what happened, I asked you that you want to get out to the audience.
00:41:50.220 --> 00:41:51.330
Tom Hardin: yeah it's a good question.
00:41:54.030 --> 00:41:58.410
Tom Hardin: I think, just like goes back to my original I mean I guess we've already covered it but.
00:41:59.730 --> 00:42:01.890
Tom Hardin: You know, good people can do bad things.
00:42:03.090 --> 00:42:05.790
Tom Hardin: Not to have our blinders up in situations.
00:42:07.080 --> 00:42:11.820
Tom Hardin: So often with ethics, I see other trainers just talking about sort of ethical dilemmas like.
00:42:12.150 --> 00:42:23.340
Tom Hardin: choosing between a right now right and the wrong from a wrong and that's most of our education but really what I talked about is the moral temptation, where we know what's right we know what's wrong and and we can see people choosing the wrong.
00:42:24.600 --> 00:42:31.350
Tom Hardin: There was a Wall Street Journal study may have seen this one, a couple years ago where a professor looked at 30 Wall Street Journal.
00:42:32.040 --> 00:42:40.590
Tom Hardin: issues and look for instances of misconduct and 30 issues he found 47 instances, and it was like is it an ethical dilemma like a right and the right.
00:42:40.980 --> 00:42:51.930
Tom Hardin: Or is it a right and wrong and the person knew what was right and chose the wrong all 47 cases in this 30 day sample The Wall Street Journal was all moral temptations, the person chose the wrong when they knew it was right so.
00:42:52.860 --> 00:42:59.790
Tom Hardin: let's just be aware of our blind spots and that know that all of us are potentially one decision away from being a you know, a situation we don't want to be so.
00:43:01.860 --> 00:43:05.610
Tom Hardin: You know I went down to hope it just that's that's what I tried to get out, you know in my talk.
00:43:06.120 --> 00:43:14.700
Kelly Paxton: The peak and rule of comment we're gonna leave on a positive note, so the positive have you read intentional integrity by rob chestnut.
00:43:15.120 --> 00:43:19.320
Tom Hardin: uh I have not I've heard rob on podcast but I've not I've not read this book.
00:43:19.770 --> 00:43:25.770
Kelly Paxton: yeah his code moments are really good I wouldn't recommend that I'm.
00:43:27.120 --> 00:43:37.830
Kelly Paxton: Tom is awesome I like honestly I felt like you know the stars aligned to for to meet, because you barely made it to that event at the shoreline I mean you were coming from London.
00:43:38.190 --> 00:43:51.900
Kelly Paxton: And you know we've just kept up on linkedin and everything like that, and again you haven't made this just about your story you've made this about how anyone can do it, which I love.
00:43:52.350 --> 00:43:57.960
Tom Hardin: Thank you, thank you that's that's always the goal with the talk with the training engagements connecting with people.
00:43:58.770 --> 00:44:02.070
Tom Hardin: it's funny I was an introvert by I love I love connecting with people now and so.
00:44:02.670 --> 00:44:09.180
Tom Hardin: I think this is maybe much more of an extrovert, and so the last you know 14 months or 15 months ago it's been kind of a downer not being able to you know.
00:44:09.720 --> 00:44:13.050
Tom Hardin: The same position, not being able to be in the room, with people so it's really been.
00:44:13.980 --> 00:44:22.710
Tom Hardin: had to shuffle kind of how we do things with us, with these talks and how we connect with people but looking forward to hopefully some hybrid events again in the fall and getting connected with people in the room again.
00:44:23.190 --> 00:44:30.060
Kelly Paxton: yeah yeah well Tom Thank you so much I know this is going to be just a smashing hit for great women in fraud.
00:44:30.930 --> 00:44:32.370
Tom Hardin: Thanks so much Kelly pleasure to be here.
Was that amazing? Tom and I are both behavioral science geeks. We are constantly trading books and resources. That is what is great about Tom. Unlike some former fraudsters, not mentioning names, Tom works on his craft, the science of behavior, and how to best help people understand that good people do bad things. Please let me know if you liked this episode. Do you like it when I have my felon friends come on? Are they helpful? And of course, you can leave a review. Thank you and have a great week.