Great Women In Fraud

Episode 36 Dr. Martina Dove, The Psychology of Fraud, Persuasion and Scam Techniques author

June 15, 2021 Kelly Paxton, CFE Episode 36
Great Women In Fraud
Episode 36 Dr. Martina Dove, The Psychology of Fraud, Persuasion and Scam Techniques author
Show Notes Transcript


#PodcastTuesday Martina Dove

Have you been a victim of a scam?  Did it change your career trajectory?  In today’s GWIF episode I talk with Dr. Martina Dove about her start in the fraud world. Being a victim of a fraud shaped her and her career.  Her book, The Psychology of Fraud, Persuasion and Scam Techniques, is a must-read. If you know anyone who you think may fall victim to a fraud it is mandatory. Martina does checklists and provides examples from real scams.

It is a fascinating read. 

I love how she has been able to use her “softer” human skills to integrate with cyber and scams. And at the core of fraud are humans. As Joe Wells said, “Fraud is not an accounting problem. It is a social problem.” Robots don’t do fraud. Humans commit fraud. Take a listen and let me know your thoughts. Have a wonderful week.

 Welcome back to another episode of Great Women in Fraud. Today’s amazing guest is Dr. Martina Dove. She has written a book that I highly recommend. I loved talking with her because her story of getting started in studying fraud was from being a victim. Her book, The Psychology of Fraud, Persuasion and Scam Techniques is a well highlighted book in my fraud library. Let’s get started.

00:00:02.909 --> 00:00:18.060
Kelly Paxton: This week we have Dr Martina Dove and I will tell you that we met on Twitter like I looked back through my Linkedin messages and, yes, we met on Twitter in January of 2017 and.

00:00:19.439 --> 00:00:31.500
Kelly Paxton: I'm going to let her talk about kind of her specialty but I will tell you I have her book the Psychology of Fraud,  Persuasion and Scam Techniques Understanding what makes us vulnerable.

00:00:31.710 --> 00:00:41.430
Kelly Paxton: And you guys can't see this, but you but Martina sees it, and I have so many yellow sticky notes on it, because I love it in the first thing I am going to say.

00:00:41.820 --> 00:00:52.680
Kelly Paxton: Yes to start this off it's at the beginning, every book to fraud victims everywhere, it is not your fault, it is a crime may you find your voice to tell your stories proudly.

00:00:53.220 --> 00:01:00.030
Kelly Paxton: Oh, my God I love that so Martina. Welcome to Great Women in Fraud and why don't you give your sort of elevator speech.

00:01:00.870 --> 00:01:16.080
Martina Dove: And thank you oh gosh elevator speech yeah so  I kind of go into fraud by accident really I kind of did something for my masters, which was very interesting, I was doing a masters.

00:01:17.460 --> 00:01:23.370
Martina Dove: Like I was doing a research project, which was to do with cognitive biases so the Barnum effect which is.

00:01:23.730 --> 00:01:31.080
Martina Dove: kind of tricking people into believing the feedback you're giving them is the personal feedback when it's actually just a nonsense.

00:01:31.830 --> 00:01:39.330
Martina Dove: So pretty much like clairvoyance scams work, so I kind of wanted to do something with that I wanted to do something.

00:01:39.720 --> 00:01:46.950
Martina Dove: That is similar to that and I didn't really know how until I read a really good article on persuasion in phishing emails.

00:01:47.550 --> 00:01:58.710
Martina Dove: And how psychology is used, and this is kind of what sparked my passion and led to my PhD and I've been passionate about fraud, ever since and this book really is I'm.

00:01:59.700 --> 00:02:07.410
Martina Dove: Just like I knew I was going to write it as soon as I interviewed for the victims, for my first study and kind of dive deeper in that.

00:02:08.250 --> 00:02:20.910
Martina Dove: as well, so yeah like this book has been really cool and I have a lot of sympathy for fraud victims and what it goes through, and I myself was scammed on eBay as well, one time, and even though I got my money back.

00:02:21.750 --> 00:02:27.240
Martina Dove: I was still very angry and very disappointed in human nature, so I know what it's like to.

00:02:28.350 --> 00:02:43.530
Martina Dove: kind of be scammed so yeah I that's how I got into fraud now I'm a ux researcher a tripwire now so I'm working on cyber security solutions so that's super exciting to just kind of merging psychology with cyber security.

00:02:44.760 --> 00:02:46.500
Martina Dove: Now the two well.

00:02:46.530 --> 00:02:55.650
Kelly Paxton: The thing is, like you know you're working at Tripwire but you're more I'm going to say more, the softer sort of skills so you're not like the you know.

00:02:56.340 --> 00:03:13.980
Kelly Paxton: The total stereotype coder you know hacker or anything like that, but you're like what why people do it and fraud is committed by people so it's so important to have people like you, that understand why people do it.

00:03:15.540 --> 00:03:32.160
Martina Dove: So just just a little clarification I don't actually have a lot of data on why people do it, and the reason for that is that I was never successful at attracting scammers to talk to me and I don't know that anybody is like that kind of.

00:03:33.930 --> 00:03:39.000
Martina Dove: You know, successful at that, especially when it comes to personal fraud, so I know that when.

00:03:39.480 --> 00:03:48.810
Martina Dove: You know, like when white collar crime happens, a lot of the times the organization spot who's doing it and catch them and prosecute them so.

00:03:49.170 --> 00:03:56.250
Martina Dove: You know a lot of the times when this happens in a private to private individuals it's very difficult to get to this camera and get them to talk.

00:03:56.700 --> 00:04:03.540
Martina Dove: Incidents I was not able to find a lot out there, apart from the fraud triangle explanation as to why people commit fraud.

00:04:04.170 --> 00:04:19.290
Martina Dove: As to what motivates people to commit fraud, but my specialty is more kind of what's cameras used to persuade when they do social engineering and what makes us vulnerable as hans to these kind of persuasion techniques that they do.

00:04:19.890 --> 00:04:26.640
Kelly Paxton: yeah, and that is a big difference between like my work where I'm working with you know either the victim or the suspect.

00:04:27.030 --> 00:04:38.580
Kelly Paxton: And it isn't as anonymous is the work you've done, but the work you do is so important, so what I really another I mean I loved a lot of things about this book, but you give examples of.

00:04:38.640 --> 00:04:41.280
Kelly Paxton: emails and you give examples of.

00:04:43.140 --> 00:04:53.700
Kelly Paxton: How they do it and I love, I wrote down Okay, so you have this scam experience, which you know you have precursors commitment and aftermath your.

00:04:54.300 --> 00:05:03.060
Kelly Paxton: I mean, obviously, you have a PhD you're like the examples, the book is really, really good because it's got great examples like useful.

00:05:03.660 --> 00:05:15.450
Kelly Paxton: You can hand this book to someone you have a checklist and anyone who knows me knows I love checklist so you've got a checklist like these are really useful things so  yeah I.

00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:32.850
Kelly Paxton: Think it's great now, as I said, we have a speed round to start things off and even though we're a few minutes into it we're going to do this speed round, and I just warned her Tina about it right before, because this is kind of new, so no wrong answer, but first one MAC or PC.

00:05:33.570 --> 00:05:34.050

00:05:35.280 --> 00:05:45.960
Kelly Paxton: Okay, this is two for two and not includes me so three for three okay now this one I don't know if you're going to know or have an opinion on who embezzled better men or women.

00:05:49.050 --> 00:05:55.620
Martina Dove: Oh that's a tough one, I don't know I kind of want to say men, but I think, women are catching up.

00:05:57.000 --> 00:06:04.470
Kelly Paxton: Okay men steal more women still more often in my experience, but I like that you say, women are catching up because.

00:06:05.580 --> 00:06:09.810
Martina Dove: Absolutely quality everywhere, even a fraud.

00:06:11.220 --> 00:06:19.050
Kelly Paxton:  and then is there a famous crook or cop, then you would like to sit and have coffee or dinner with and who would.

00:06:19.560 --> 00:06:25.170
Martina Dove: Be yeah I think Frank Abagnale

00:06:26.520 --> 00:06:30.030
Martina Dove: Who is you know famous Catch Me If You Can.

00:06:32.130 --> 00:06:33.390
Kelly Paxton: The new book about yeah.

00:06:34.350 --> 00:06:37.080
Martina Dove: I probably have not.

00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:40.440
Kelly Paxton: Oh, you need to check out the new book about him.

00:06:40.470 --> 00:06:43.440
Kelly Paxton: It appears, you might not be quite what he says he was.

00:06:43.770 --> 00:06:46.440
Martina Dove: Oh no no don't shatter my dreams.

00:06:47.430 --> 00:06:48.150
Martina Dove: I really.

00:06:50.280 --> 00:06:53.220
Kelly Paxton: The link in the show notes and I will send it to you, and it is.

00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:57.150
Kelly Paxton: yeah okay you gotta cross them off the list, who else.

00:06:57.420 --> 00:07:02.850
Martina Dove: Oh, my gosh like he's coming to me then I'm with ya know I really enjoyed his book.

00:07:04.020 --> 00:07:05.910
Martina Dove: Another famous Kirk.

00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:07.650
Martina Dove: or car wash.

00:07:08.130 --> 00:07:10.020
Martina Dove: detective .

00:07:11.070 --> 00:07:14.070
Martina Dove: I don't know to be honest, oh.

00:07:16.230 --> 00:07:19.110
Martina Dove: Oh that's a tough one, I really don't like this round.

00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:30.450
Martina Dove: I think that's a tough one, I don't know I'm that many detectives that kind of like I mean do I, you know, can I sort of say.

00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:32.700
Martina Dove: Does that count.

00:07:32.790 --> 00:07:37.440
Kelly Paxton: Okay, you could do flow yes Okay, you can bring it back from the dead.

00:07:37.830 --> 00:07:38.460
Martina Dove: Or the fifth.

00:07:38.850 --> 00:07:41.190
Martina Dove: or whatever sorry about that.

00:07:41.760 --> 00:07:51.570
Kelly Paxton: No, no that's a good one that I like that I like that Okay, so now we go to go to some quotes because, like Martina can see all my little sticky notes I just love them.

00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:59.550
Kelly Paxton: So this is even after I in this is in the introduction, even after I received a refund purchased a phone and moved on.

00:07:59.820 --> 00:08:06.900
Kelly Paxton: I would periodically have flashbacks of the incident and It made me question motivations of anyone, I did not know.

00:08:07.350 --> 00:08:20.760
Kelly Paxton: I simultaneously felt ashamed that I was not more mature and able to move on from this relatively benign fraud experience that did not even result in the loss of funds and extremely angry that this happened to me.

00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:32.070
Kelly Paxton: This is a struggle most fraud victims have long after they were defrauded coupled with a sense of injustice, I read that and I hear that all the time from my victims.

00:08:33.450 --> 00:08:44.790
Martina Dove: yeah so I was camden eBay so like it's not as dramatic as it sounds, basically a purchase the phone wasn't even that cheap at all, I was a new phone purchased it.

00:08:45.330 --> 00:08:53.070
Martina Dove: didn't get it within my claim I got the money back, but there's this sense, you know, like there's this sense of kind of like.

00:08:54.060 --> 00:09:06.210
Martina Dove: I could have checked, something you know I could have checked, what else there was telling because, as soon as I realized that I wasn't getting the phone I checked and I could see that they had other items and other people are complaining.

00:09:07.410 --> 00:09:11.430
Martina Dove: You know it's kind of like that realization that you trust it someone.

00:09:12.090 --> 00:09:18.570
Martina Dove: You know it's kind of look like I think a lot of the time, this is something that I've heard from a lot of fraud victims that I spoke to.

00:09:19.020 --> 00:09:26.640
Martina Dove: And I had one person talk to me he didn't even lose any funds it's, not even the funds, sometimes, is the fact that actually.

00:09:27.510 --> 00:09:36.210
Martina Dove: You know you trust in hans and the trust is just like completely destroyed in that moment, so I think there was really for me I.

00:09:36.540 --> 00:09:41.100
Martina Dove: And plus you know, like between you and me, I really enjoy petty revenge.

00:09:41.490 --> 00:09:50.670
Martina Dove: On thoughts, you know I think it's it's their healing you know just kind of playing out in your mind like you know, and I was playing out in my mind like hey.

00:09:50.940 --> 00:09:56.580
Martina Dove: You know how people would take money from their account, and they would be stranded somewhere, because now they wouldn't have had.

00:09:56.760 --> 00:10:06.030
Martina Dove: You know, like like all of those things kind of come to your mind when you when you playing this over and over trying to make you felt like like yourself feel better but yeah there was .

00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:23.520
Martina Dove: You know you've made me really appreciate how horrific it must feel if you lose let's say your life savings to a Scammer you know, on top of you know that trust being gone, but also your safety net being gone how horrific that might be.

00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:30.000
Kelly Paxton: yeah so this goes to like I don't know if you know the statistic, but they say in statistics so.

00:10:31.230 --> 00:10:46.560
Kelly Paxton: Only 15% of all embezzlement cases are turned over to law enforcement, you have shame and humiliation, and I mean I know people and I'm mostly older people who have lost money, and they are too embarrassed to tell their children, like.

00:10:46.590 --> 00:10:47.490
Adult children.

00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:49.380
Martina Dove: yeah.

00:10:49.560 --> 00:10:50.550
Kelly Paxton: He was huge.

00:10:51.900 --> 00:10:59.670
Martina Dove: yeah like I think it's really difficult, as well as you know, there's a really, really good I'm.

00:11:00.990 --> 00:11:15.480
Martina Dove: Australian researcher called Professor Cross she actually has done a lot of research with elderly people and how much blame they put on themselves and not in a Scammer and and I think it's really.

00:11:16.800 --> 00:11:25.560
Martina Dove: it's sad that people do that but it's understandable you blame yourself, because you didn't you know you didn't protect yourself right, so the first kind of blame falls on you.

00:11:26.190 --> 00:11:35.070
Martina Dove: You know, in terms of how you process these kind of thing, but what is very complicated, as well, in terms of elderly people as well, a lot of the times.

00:11:35.970 --> 00:11:44.790
Martina Dove: You know, things are changing so your cognitive functions may not be greatest and you're ashamed to admit it out, and that is just one.

00:11:45.270 --> 00:11:56.610
Martina Dove: one kind of prove that maybe you're not as as as independent as you once were, and I think there's also you know it's probably wise commerce pick on elderly people, the most.

00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:00.660
Martina Dove: And target elderly people, they have money they have retirement funds.

00:12:01.470 --> 00:12:11.130
Martina Dove: You know, and they may be more vulnerable in terms of that they may be isolated, they may not be in regular contact with a family or they may be living on their own.

00:12:11.550 --> 00:12:22.560
Martina Dove: , so I think there's this other layer of shame like I don't want people to think I'm I am unable to not take care of myself, you know so that's this particularly sad, I think.

00:12:23.460 --> 00:12:34.770
Kelly Paxton: I used to joke my mom rest her soul, I would never give her a computer like you know she got to the point where like if I would have given her a computer she would have told me about the Nigerian Prince.

00:12:35.400 --> 00:12:44.520
Kelly Paxton: So it was like a joke with this networking group, because they would ask me a lot about elder fraud and I'm like just take the computer way and we can't do that and we shouldn't have.

00:12:44.520 --> 00:12:45.150
Kelly Paxton: To do that.

00:12:45.630 --> 00:12:47.610
Martina Dove: yeah I know my dad I mean like I have a.

00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:52.770
Martina Dove: An elderly father and he's still blessing he's still very.

00:12:52.770 --> 00:12:54.540
Martina Dove: Much on top of his game.

00:12:55.290 --> 00:13:03.330
Martina Dove: But even he's he's like he's able to kind of share with me and say hey like I'm noticing a can make simple math in my head anymore like used to.

00:13:03.630 --> 00:13:14.280
Martina Dove: calculate how much he's spending in a shop and he would kind of like have a little mental thing with a tail and he's kind of like said to me, I'm realizing I'm making bigger errors now.

00:13:15.180 --> 00:13:24.000
Martina Dove: And I sort of said to him, I commend you for telling me this, and please you know, whenever you have these thoughts and things shared this with me, because this is how people become vulnerable.

00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:33.570
Martina Dove: When they notice these things, and they just don't tell anyone, so your family's not aware, you know, and I would say, like the biggest thing we can do against fraud is just.

00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:45.510
Martina Dove: Just share and ask for help and ask for a second opinion and kind of like just you know just share your story to make people aware what's happening to you, and you know.

00:13:46.830 --> 00:14:01.350
Kelly Paxton: yeah yeah I mean well this goes to in Chapter two fraud can also be perpetrated against private individuals, but this is often not viewed as seriously as other types of fraud, fraud victims get very little sympathy.

00:14:01.680 --> 00:14:08.490
Kelly Paxton: acid being scammed somehow implies being responsible for the victimization and that was from Cassandra Cross in 2015.

00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:22.710
Martina Dove: yeah basically it's you know, Professor Cross did a lot of researching just how you know what is the rhetoric around fraud victimization and and pretty much, and I found this in my studies as well.

00:14:23.730 --> 00:14:27.540
Martina Dove: That people sort of have this idea that fraud happens to stupid people.

00:14:28.110 --> 00:14:35.760
Martina Dove: And you know, like when you think about it, if you give to charity, if you give to go fund me campaigns, you may not even know that you were defrauded.

00:14:36.090 --> 00:14:41.100
Martina Dove: You know some of those campaigns could have been fraudulent you know a lot of the times, people have this erroneous.

00:14:41.760 --> 00:14:49.500
Martina Dove: thinking that you wouldn't happen to them, and I think you know, like, I actually found in my studies that that makes you more vulnerable.

00:14:49.770 --> 00:15:04.530
Martina Dove: When you think this wouldn't happen to you that it only happens to some people, so I think we need to kind of change of us as a society and realize it can happen to anyone who just you know some cameras are better than others, you know, maybe you didn't meet your what's covered yet so.

00:15:05.310 --> 00:15:05.700
Martina Dove: You know.

00:15:06.180 --> 00:15:10.470
Kelly Paxton: really good Scammer yeah that's it oh my God that's that's a good one, so .

00:15:11.100 --> 00:15:26.910
Kelly Paxton: And then it's like there's a distinct lack of research, when it comes to fraudsters, especially those who commit fraud against private individuals, as opposed to those committee occupational fraud, and that is so true  because they're one offs.

00:15:27.870 --> 00:15:36.780
Martina Dove: yeah I mean a lot of the times I think  you know very little fraud against private individuals actually gets.

00:15:37.500 --> 00:15:45.360
Martina Dove: gets you know investigated and prosecuted and it's like I think it's slightly better in the US, because you guys have the FBI.

00:15:45.780 --> 00:15:53.130
Martina Dove: And there are more on the case, then in Europe, fraud is a lot more brushed under the carpet because there's just no resources dealing with it.

00:15:53.910 --> 00:16:03.420
Martina Dove: You know, you need dedicated forces and a lot of the times local police just doesn't have those resources so it's really kind of looking at what.

00:16:03.870 --> 00:16:14.250
Martina Dove: Is the biggest kind of impact in terms of you know so usually fraudsters that commit crime against many people, maybe the elderly people, maybe the amount of funds that gets.

00:16:14.670 --> 00:16:23.010
Martina Dove: Taken I'm sorry sorry I just think you know I wish we would prosecute even the smallest of frauds just as a deterrent.

00:16:23.460 --> 00:16:32.460
Martina Dove: You know because I think it's just very much and then again like if you keep the amount low, you may not even get on the radar because the police won't even bother with small amounts.

00:16:32.820 --> 00:16:45.030
Martina Dove: But you may be defrauding thousands of people have small amounts and that equals quite a large gain for a fraudster, so I think you know, like, I would like to see a lot more done for fraud victims.

00:16:45.930 --> 00:16:58.290
Kelly Paxton: Absolutely, I totally agree, and then I don't know if you know that I'm the fraud hashtag Queen, but one of my hashtags is never underestimate, a woman and then I'm reading, this is still in Chapter two.

00:16:58.800 --> 00:17:13.650
Kelly Paxton: Either way, my advice would be to never ever underestimate them and I love that because and just that the term optimism bias, we think it won't happen to us we're just that much smarter we're just that much more careful there is.

00:17:14.460 --> 00:17:31.500
Kelly Paxton: A retired astronaut rocket scientist that lives in the greater Seattle area smart guy was on boeing's board, I would say he probably is you know off the charts smart wise he's got ripped off $750,000 by his administrative assistant for his one of his foundations.

00:17:32.280 --> 00:17:42.210
Martina Dove: yeah so like one of the things that I always say to people is that fraud has nothing to do with how intelligent, you are, and it has a lot to do with what needs.

00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:52.440
Martina Dove: Did you have on that because really what frauds do they meet some kind of unmet needs that you have whether that's you know, like you know.

00:17:53.100 --> 00:18:00.990
Martina Dove: I mean, to give you a solid example, people are a lot more vulnerable to financial frauds when they are not, you know financially stable.

00:18:01.620 --> 00:18:09.030
Martina Dove: Why is that because they have a greater need so they're willing to risk more you know, are you more willing to.

00:18:09.750 --> 00:18:19.650
Martina Dove: chat to strangers online when you're single or when you're married probably when you're single because you already have your needs met in a relationship and you're looking for those needs to be met.

00:18:20.010 --> 00:18:28.350
Martina Dove: When you're single so it's kind of like I think I want to educate people that it's very little to do with your intelligence and a lot to do with.

00:18:29.010 --> 00:18:43.860
Martina Dove: You know, you know, perhaps other other characteristics, then you may have like a level of vigilance how impulsive you are whether you're somebody who's just like slow making decisions so like you know, do you need to think this through, do you.

00:18:44.070 --> 00:18:46.950
Martina Dove: Like to be rushed, are you somebody who's compliant.

00:18:47.550 --> 00:18:56.550
Martina Dove: You know, those are all of the things that actually matter, a lot more than your IQ or intelligence, because at the end of the day, you're impulsive and intelligent you still do.

00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:11.610
Martina Dove: impulsive things and scammers really rely on you being impulsive so you know Those are the things like I think the needs which falls under circumstances and our human factors, you know what makes you you right.

00:19:12.270 --> 00:19:26.430
Martina Dove: And you know I say this is somebody who used to be terribly impulsive and I had to learn not to be so impulsive you know, so you know it's kind of one of those things that you know you learn by mistakes, making policy decisions, and you know you do better.

00:19:27.600 --> 00:19:34.260
Kelly Paxton: Well I'm you know we're both well you're you're a doctor so I'm I'm a fake doctor no I'm not.

00:19:34.290 --> 00:19:36.390
Martina Dove: Even a fake doctor or a Queen.

00:19:38.040 --> 00:19:53.700
Kelly Paxton: But  the whole idea of Danny Kahneman system one and system two and this quick thinking versus the slow thinking and the slow thinking is the more logical ethical thinking to slow down to sleep on it overnight.

00:19:54.510 --> 00:20:03.780
Martina Dove: yeah so that and also like whether you're making decisions on the strong emotion so there's like I I'm a great fan of Professor Greenspan.

00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:14.640
Martina Dove: And he wrote a book called Annals of Gullibility and, as I just love him he's great and and like he explained it really well it's kind of like.

00:20:15.120 --> 00:20:19.770
Martina Dove: it's you know whether you making a decision under like a strong emotion and what does that mean right.

00:20:20.040 --> 00:20:23.550
Martina Dove: If you want something really, really bad you'll be kind of excited about it.

00:20:23.790 --> 00:20:33.240
Martina Dove: So your decision is going to be biased it you don't want something like I can make a decision not to purchase a tesla car, but I don't care about cars that much you know so it's kind of.

00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:37.290
Martina Dove: You know whether you have the strong emotion around this decision.

00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:45.720
Martina Dove: And I think that also gets overlooked and then on top of that there's the system one and system two are you just making an automatic decision or.

00:20:45.930 --> 00:20:54.870
Martina Dove: Is this decision, actually, something that you have to think a little bit more carefully it's complicated it's like all of these factors kind of coming together and making.

00:20:56.070 --> 00:21:03.600
Martina Dove: You know your experience very unique right, so the situation you're in is the situation, rising some strong emotions fear.

00:21:04.260 --> 00:21:11.070
Martina Dove: You know, when you get a phishing email that it's just extortion email, and you know you've been surfing the porn websites.

00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:19.980
Martina Dove: You know, suddenly that moment you'll have a fear, because it could be true, you know and under that fear you're likely to do something that you wouldn't do.

00:21:20.490 --> 00:21:39.390
Martina Dove: In another moment you know, so I think really emotions come down to how likely, you are to just kind of make any policy decision make a quick decision maker irrational decision so it's kind of all come, you know, like I I like to say it's complicated it's many factors.

00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:55.920
Kelly Paxton: yeah and sometimes it's not as maybe a great analogy, the perfect storm happens it's someone who normally would never but maybe they've just lost a spouse or you know they lost their job or you know something it's that perfect fraud storm.

00:21:56.790 --> 00:22:04.110
Kelly Paxton: And it can happen to the best of us and you know I truly believe that honest people make bad decisions and can steal.

00:22:04.830 --> 00:22:11.310
Kelly Paxton: The sort of the scammers you're talking about it's like a full career, whereas like my pink color criminals.

00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:21.720
Kelly Paxton: they're generally good people who have never broken the law, and then you got the angle that they had the opportunity, but the scammers it's it's their job.

00:22:22.230 --> 00:22:37.500
Kelly Paxton: Okay, so this is another question, you know, obviously you're we can tell audience that Martina is not from the states but she's living in the States  you're from where Okay, I know you're from the UK, but like what part.

00:22:37.980 --> 00:22:45.690
Martina Dove: So i'll make sure the originally creation sound from Croatia, but I lived in London, most of my life, so I lived in London, for a long time.

00:22:46.560 --> 00:22:49.590
Kelly Paxton: So, are you watching lupin on TV.

00:22:50.310 --> 00:22:54.360
Martina Dove: You know I've heard about it, I haven't started watching that yet, but it's on my to do.

00:22:54.960 --> 00:23:07.620
Kelly Paxton: Okay, so this goes to another question which are usually asked towards the end but we're going to ask it now, since I brought up gluten, and that is, are you bingeing any like crime or anything fun these days from all of this, what do you been.

00:23:08.520 --> 00:23:12.480
Martina Dove: Up to the latest thing that we watched was mayor of East found is it marrow.

00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:14.910
Kelly Paxton: My God yeah it's a good yeah.

00:23:15.060 --> 00:23:16.230
Martina Dove: yeah it's very, very good.

00:23:16.230 --> 00:23:18.030
Kelly Paxton: You see the end come in.

00:23:18.450 --> 00:23:32.760
Martina Dove: yeah  I kind of didn't and I'm usually very good at seeing and coming my husband predicted it  my money was on maybe I shouldn't say, but my money wasn't her love interest.

00:23:33.660 --> 00:23:34.380
Martina Dove: I thought he was.

00:23:34.560 --> 00:23:49.710
Kelly Paxton: funny so Kara swisher who has the pivot podcast she she you know guess this and then, once you guessed it and I'm not getting no spoiler alerts once you guessed it, I was like ooh that makes sense.

00:23:49.740 --> 00:23:54.780
Kelly Paxton: yeah that makes sense, so no spoiler alerts if you haven't watched movies town, you should watch it.

00:23:55.050 --> 00:23:58.800
Kelly Paxton: Kate was good excellent job so any other things that you're like.

00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:06.120
Martina Dove: Oh, what else did I watch, I mean there's many, many others .

00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:22.980
Martina Dove: I don't know like so, so this is on prime and I absolutely love it it's called silent witness I've like rewatch silent witness so many times it's about a pathologist and like she kind of solve crimes.

00:24:24.030 --> 00:24:28.920
Martina Dove: So it's kind of about this pathology office it's one of the BBC dramas.

00:24:29.280 --> 00:24:30.000
Martina Dove: Oh no.

00:24:31.320 --> 00:24:39.930
Martina Dove: it's called silent witness and that's my go to thing I just absolutely love it I like it's ridiculous I'm like it has something like 22nd.

00:24:40.860 --> 00:24:52.050
Martina Dove: Like 2223 seasons, or something and I would say the actress changed at season nine our second season nine is a little bit more and more than and.

00:24:52.470 --> 00:24:58.170
Martina Dove: An interesting, but she has been like this pathologist has been in so many dangerous situations she's.

00:24:58.500 --> 00:25:09.930
Martina Dove: been buried in Mexico and shot at and like look, you know you wouldn't have been to normal pathologies can never leaves the lab like I think you know kind of Dr G probably wouldn't.

00:25:10.830 --> 00:25:23.820
Martina Dove: kind of get into those kind of things  but yeah it's pretty good I really, really like that I love I love all BBC kind of like dramas and things like that so so that's kind of like something that I watch almost every night.

00:25:24.330 --> 00:25:25.290
Martina Dove: I know you watch.

00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:33.510
Kelly Paxton: So, and you know I don't know if you notice this but there's a theme here to women, basically detective prime solders.

00:25:33.600 --> 00:25:34.650
Kelly Paxton: yeah I love that.

00:25:35.310 --> 00:25:36.360
Martina Dove: yeah yeah.

00:25:36.390 --> 00:25:37.200
Kelly Paxton: Just great women.

00:25:38.190 --> 00:25:40.170
Martina Dove: Yes, yes, totally.

00:25:41.040 --> 00:25:50.130
Kelly Paxton: Okay, and now this isn't the way end of Chapter two, I love I love this because it's so true but it's also a little so sad.

00:25:51.060 --> 00:25:59.010
Kelly Paxton: And the system is broken fraud is not always easy to investigate and prosecute but treating victims of fraud with respect should be easy.

00:25:59.280 --> 00:26:09.090
Kelly Paxton: and honest, transparent and sympathetic way of dealing with victims of fraud is sorely needed better prevention is needed, especially as the prosecution rates are so low.

00:26:09.420 --> 00:26:23.490
Kelly Paxton: There seems to be very little risk to one of these rosters when it comes to perpetrating fraud sharing stories raising awareness and destroying stigma attached abroad victimization is the key, we are literally like daughters from two different mothers, because.

00:26:25.080 --> 00:26:26.850
Kelly Paxton: I don't want to victim shame and.

00:26:28.080 --> 00:26:33.570
Kelly Paxton: When I read that I was like oh my God, I cannot wait to talk to you because it's so important.

00:26:33.930 --> 00:26:44.610
Martina Dove: it's so important, and you know, like I, my first study that I've done in my PhD was to interview for victims and one of the things that actually.

00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:50.910
Martina Dove: came out of that which was a surprising finding but very important finding is that.

00:26:51.480 --> 00:27:01.050
Martina Dove: Sometimes the treatment they receive from the authorities when they trying to report is actually more victimizing, then the fraud itself.

00:27:01.590 --> 00:27:06.030
Martina Dove: You know it's actually that realization that you are on your own.

00:27:06.540 --> 00:27:17.490
Martina Dove: that the government doesn't care that nobody cares and that is no help for you and you know, like, I remember one of the the people that I spoke to said to me, you know.

00:27:17.910 --> 00:27:27.540
Martina Dove: I changed as a result, you know I don't stop for anybody in the street, even if somebody wants to just ask for directions I just don't stop anymore and it's.

00:27:27.870 --> 00:27:33.360
Martina Dove: it's sad another one told me I don't trust small companies anymore, you know small websites.

00:27:33.930 --> 00:27:40.350
Martina Dove: You know, because there will be fraud in on one and it's a shame, because there may be thousands of small companies trying to make it.

00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:48.300
Martina Dove: I'm just not going to trust them because I've never heard of them and it's that thing that actually we don't realize how harmful, it is.

00:27:48.750 --> 00:27:57.450
Martina Dove: What we doing to fraud victims when they trying to tell us what happened and I think that can change, you know I think I get the funding.

00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:05.910
Martina Dove: I get that you don't have the means to prosecute everyone I get that it's difficult to prosecute fraud, especially with jurisdictions.

00:28:06.660 --> 00:28:14.190
Martina Dove: If it's cameras in Nigeria or Russia or whatever you're not going to be able to, but you can treat victims with respect when they trying to report.

00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:28.470
Martina Dove: You can be honest with them don't just take the report you can tell them why it's going to be difficult, or what are the prospects of persecution and I just think a lot of the times like I mean my PhD was in UK so he was mostly concentrated on UK victims.

00:28:29.730 --> 00:28:44.550
Martina Dove: You know, like really the authorities weren't very open with victims in terms of what they can expect you know they build them up like a report we're going to do something about it, and then, absolutely nothing, so I think that's really damaging.

00:28:46.140 --> 00:28:49.200
Kelly Paxton: Like oh my God preach preach preach this is.

00:28:50.340 --> 00:28:54.600
Kelly Paxton: yeah and you know I've said this recently lately is.

00:28:55.950 --> 00:28:59.520
Kelly Paxton: It used to be sexual assault weren't reported.

00:29:00.660 --> 00:29:19.560
Kelly Paxton: And part of it was because the victims knew that they'd have to go on to the stand and they'd say so, what were you wearing now that's irrelevant it's totally irrelevant, and so the whole world of you know, fraud and pink collar crime is like I want to normalize it so people.

00:29:19.950 --> 00:29:29.070
Kelly Paxton: are able to get they won't be too scared to go up on the stand and say yeah you know what I didn't open my bank statement that doesn't mean they should have stolen property.

00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:30.750
Kelly Paxton: So.

00:29:30.780 --> 00:29:31.890
Kelly Paxton: yeah yeah.

00:29:31.950 --> 00:29:32.580
Martina Dove: I agree.

00:29:33.300 --> 00:29:45.690
Kelly Paxton: So now in Chapter three we're not going through all the chapters, because you guys have to buy the book and then there'll be a link in the show, but I like to make fraud fun and you clearly like to make progress now, this is.

00:29:47.490 --> 00:29:57.780
Kelly Paxton: The most ridiculous and highly entertaining example of this scam was a Nigerian astronaut stranded in space asking for funds to come home.

00:29:59.220 --> 00:30:00.180
Kelly Paxton: And people fell for it.

00:30:01.110 --> 00:30:16.260
Martina Dove: Yes, but you have to actually understand the history of Nigerian scams, so you know, there is actually a theory out there because they're so well known and they've actually been around for.

00:30:17.610 --> 00:30:26.220
Martina Dove: Some Researchers say they've been around for centuries and there's one researcher that says they originated around 70s and they will perpetrated by.

00:30:26.670 --> 00:30:36.270
Martina Dove: Like telephone door to door even telephone packs and so they've been around a long time and they're very, very well known scams so.

00:30:36.900 --> 00:30:47.370
Martina Dove: One of the theories, is that they still circulate, not so much that they are hoping to snare victims and get kind of like.

00:30:48.150 --> 00:31:01.380
Martina Dove: You know kind of steal your money but to identify the most vulnerable people who would fall for anything and then selling the details of those people is what's a lucrative to the Scammer so they really kind of like.

00:31:02.730 --> 00:31:05.880
Martina Dove: Like a sort of a fishing net right.

00:31:06.450 --> 00:31:16.500
Martina Dove: yeah to see what they can pull in for other scams, so this is why they make them soil ridiculous, because if you really fall for that, then you must be either having.

00:31:16.800 --> 00:31:26.130
Martina Dove: cognitive decline problems with dementia, or some kind of cognitive impairments, that would not make you think rationally or you're incredibly.

00:31:27.210 --> 00:31:35.700
Martina Dove: unsavoury in terms of how fraud, fraud is perpetrated and how they work or you have learning disabilities and again, you can process what's happening.

00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:46.110
Martina Dove: So they can get those people, those people are worth money to them  so really kind of like I think somebody from Microsoft actually proposed a.

00:31:47.190 --> 00:31:50.370
Martina Dove: Like like Weiss can specifically say that from Nigeria.

00:31:51.450 --> 00:31:57.060
Martina Dove: they've so well known that they actually just want to identify the most vulnerable victims, whose details have been sold on.

00:31:58.050 --> 00:31:59.190
Martina Dove: So that's the sad part.

00:31:59.700 --> 00:32:11.400
Kelly Paxton: yeah I have a friend, whose mom is cognitively you know challenge, right now, because she's older and she called my friend her daughter and said oh I got flowers.

00:32:12.660 --> 00:32:28.350
Kelly Paxton: And it was from some guy and my friend explain too much to explain here but, basically, I said so now they know your mom's address they know her birthday like you really they're building up.

00:32:29.250 --> 00:32:34.620
Kelly Paxton: And she hadn't even thought of it like that she's like oh my God, they do have more address it's no longer just the email.

00:32:34.650 --> 00:32:48.960
Kelly Paxton: They have a physical address they have her birthday, because you know he sent her flowers on her birthday and yeah So there you know engineering, a lot of information and once they cycle through then they're just yeah.

00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:51.150
Kelly Paxton: In their patient.

00:32:51.840 --> 00:32:59.280
Martina Dove: yeah the patient and like it's kind of like I'm a little bit shocked actually coming from Europe, I kind of feel fraud is.

00:32:59.730 --> 00:33:08.490
Martina Dove: Few good years behind what was happening in UK in terms of we have ports pirates feeling of packages, I mean there was happening in there, like late 90s.

00:33:09.150 --> 00:33:14.160
Martina Dove: In London, you know so I'm kind of like kind of shocked at how innocent, it is here.

00:33:14.940 --> 00:33:23.280
Martina Dove: But I think it's catching up one of the things that really shocked me, you know I started working in the in the US and you deal with recruiters and a lot of the times.

00:33:23.820 --> 00:33:30.120
Martina Dove: You know the recruiters are just centering you in the tool and they want fall as digits of your social and I'm like.

00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:37.500
Martina Dove: No, so I always lie, and I just gave them four digits of some other nber that I remember.

00:33:38.310 --> 00:33:45.150
Martina Dove: They don't know, but like I don't want their database to be compromised and somebody can do a lot with the fallout they're just all my social.

00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:54.090
Martina Dove: And my name and maybe my date of birth, you know and it's that kind of I think people are not really thinking they're still kind of stuck in this old.

00:33:55.200 --> 00:34:04.560
Martina Dove: way of kind of like identifying you know I'm pretty sure like 20 years ago that like nobody was dealing with identity fraud so much as they are now.

00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:20.010
Martina Dove: So kind of like he was okay it's no longer Okay, but people are not catching up so yeah I was a little bit shocked how things that you would wouldn't ever divulge in London or like you wouldn't even leave a bicycle on your porch in London, because he would disappear overnight.

00:34:21.630 --> 00:34:28.530
Kelly Paxton: That doesn't happen in the greater Seattle, I know where you're at so yeah I couldn't tell anyone where you're at so.

00:34:29.700 --> 00:34:39.090
Kelly Paxton: So what advice would you give to someone who wants to pursue your career like your career has had some zigs and zags and I think you're ending up where you should end up.

00:34:39.900 --> 00:34:46.500
Martina Dove: yeah I mean like I kind of you know, like, I went from academia to cybersecurity.

00:34:47.040 --> 00:34:52.800
Martina Dove: And I'm only now breaking into cybersecurity, really, this is my first cybersecurity job, so to speak.

00:34:53.220 --> 00:35:07.590
Martina Dove: And so kind of went from research to cyber security but I'm still researching the company and i'd say like I really see that we didn't five years we're going to be mindful of han factors in fraud, so I would say.

00:35:08.670 --> 00:35:17.280
Martina Dove: You know, like a no not a lot of university of teaching, but I know that one of the universities and I actually have a good good colleague and a friend.

00:35:18.330 --> 00:35:26.910
Martina Dove: A Professor rod Graham he teaches at the university like old dominion university and I know that he teaches you know kind of.

00:35:27.630 --> 00:35:35.970
Martina Dove: vulnerabilities to fraud and and criminal justice and stuff like that I think people are definitely trying to bring han factors in fraud.

00:35:36.570 --> 00:35:41.910
Martina Dove: kind of into the modules of you know, cyber crime and then and crime.

00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:50.250
Martina Dove: You know criminology modules and stuff like that I know my university when I was there, they don't offer such models, but they I think they starting to offer.

00:35:50.640 --> 00:36:01.350
Martina Dove: more specific kind of cyber security cyber crime modules and this side of psychology as well kind of is getting bigger, so I think they they you know.

00:36:01.800 --> 00:36:15.090
Martina Dove: There is some choices, now that I didn't have when I started on, so I would say explore explore some good courses that are happening now, as a result of you know people like me who have written the first book on this kind of thing.

00:36:16.620 --> 00:36:22.530
Martina Dove: You know kind of like tying it and kind of saying day, this is important, is going to be quite quite important.

00:36:23.460 --> 00:36:28.650
Kelly Paxton: So that leads me to my next question is one of my questions is, if you were going to write a book What would it be.

00:36:28.920 --> 00:36:32.070
Kelly Paxton: What you wrote about do you have a second book that you're thinking about.

00:36:33.210 --> 00:36:34.680
Martina Dove: whoa that's a good one.

00:36:37.530 --> 00:36:46.320
Martina Dove: He knows know, I was thinking, the other day how fun, would it be to do something else from scratch, but I don't know if I have the time.

00:36:47.070 --> 00:36:59.460
Martina Dove: Quite frankly, I mean this book was a lot of work, there was a lot of research that I actually knew about so it wasn't so difficult, but there was some things that I had to kind of like do and learn about like deception.

00:37:00.510 --> 00:37:08.670
Martina Dove: So you know it's not so easy writing academic books, I guess it's not so easy writing fiction either  so so watch this space, you know.

00:37:11.070 --> 00:37:12.930
Martina Dove: I think I need to recover first a little bit.

00:37:13.710 --> 00:37:30.690
Kelly Paxton: it's kind of like childbirth after the fun yeah oh so same here same same here so  What do you do to stay on top of your industry, I mean you kind of in a new industry, but what do you do, you have resources, I mean I know you and I, tomorrow we love Twitter.

00:37:31.530 --> 00:37:47.430
Martina Dove: Yes, and so yeah like I mean the biggest thing that I kind of do I'm connected to quite a lot of academics, in the field people that have mentors conferences, you know people who are in cyber psychology who are in cyber crime who are in Siberia.

00:37:48.540 --> 00:38:00.780
Martina Dove: Like sick like security so people might my contacts on Linkedin my contacts and Twitter, I would say this is how I get exposed to things that they share that they talk about you know their research.

00:38:01.890 --> 00:38:09.060
Martina Dove: Their efforts and so on, I would say that's kind of like the main part I'm not very good at kind of like.

00:38:09.810 --> 00:38:17.040
Martina Dove: You know, and perhaps that's why I wasn't a very good academic I'm not very good at going and reading journal articles, you need to put it in front of me.

00:38:17.310 --> 00:38:28.830
Martina Dove: You know, you need to make it interesting, so I really like to check Twitter and I like to kind of I follow a lot of really good people that are kind of kind of get exposed to what's going on.

00:38:29.340 --> 00:38:34.020
Kelly Paxton: yeah I totally agree with you, so  ah.

00:38:35.670 --> 00:38:39.330
Kelly Paxton: Where can we find you online is Twitter best or as LinkedIn best.

00:38:40.050 --> 00:38:46.980
Martina Dove: Oh yeah Twitter or LinkedIn about a really good my LinkedIn is at curious shrink.

00:38:47.910 --> 00:38:48.570
Martina Dove: Well, so.

00:38:49.200 --> 00:38:50.280
Martina Dove: I know I know.

00:38:50.820 --> 00:39:01.860
Martina Dove:  so yeah like I'm pretty active on Twitter I'm pretty active on LinkedIn I'm usually I would just say, if you are adding me on LinkedIn do write me a little message.

00:39:02.700 --> 00:39:13.170
Martina Dove: Somebody just randomly adding me without telling me like I kind of ignore that and think it's fun So if you want to connect with me tell me, you want to connect and why so yeah.

00:39:14.010 --> 00:39:21.960
Kelly Paxton: Absolutely, so this is my and I think you know you know who told me this is our mutual friend kind of fan girl thing is Jenny radcliffe.

00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:34.560
Kelly Paxton: I say at the end of my prep you know the podcast is there anything else you want to tell the listeners, but I haven't asked you, and she goes oh my God that is such a law enforcement kettle question she goes but it's a great question.

00:39:34.830 --> 00:39:42.750
Kelly Paxton: So that's my question what happened, I asked you that you think the listeners great women in fraud should get out of this or that I haven't asked you.

00:39:43.770 --> 00:39:54.660
Martina Dove: yeah I would say, like what I would like to say to everyone in fraud, and you know, I would like to see people promote han factors.

00:39:55.710 --> 00:40:07.230
Martina Dove: Like vulnerability, I mean you know, like what I see a lot of is people making system secure, but we still in the early stages of realizing that people can make any secure system vulnerable.

00:40:07.770 --> 00:40:15.900
Martina Dove: And this is also worthy of actually special attention and special trainings special things that.

00:40:16.350 --> 00:40:22.860
Martina Dove: You know, awareness and I know Jen is very good at actually just pushing that in people's faces because you're so good at actually.

00:40:23.370 --> 00:40:31.230
Martina Dove: Just you're tricking anybody to do anything, and you know proving companies how easy is actually to be hacked or through the people.

00:40:31.770 --> 00:40:39.840
Martina Dove: So I would say, like, I would like to see fraud prevention specialist and why not women, you know I've met some really good women in.

00:40:40.560 --> 00:40:56.730
Martina Dove: In that space like I said, and you know, Professor Cassandra Cross, I would say follow her on Twitter as well she's great you know yeah let's make han factors, a little bit more known they matter, and they can make you vulnerable.

00:40:57.480 --> 00:41:00.540
Kelly Paxton: So that's that's so interesting because I have this.

00:41:01.770 --> 00:41:10.050
Kelly Paxton: One of my crazy sayings is all the artificial intelligence in the world is not going to stop fraud, if you don't open your bank statements.

00:41:10.770 --> 00:41:22.080
Kelly Paxton: So, like in everyone wants that you know software solution that will stop fraud and hans are at the core of fraud is joelle says fraud is not an accounting problem, it is a social phenomenon.

00:41:22.560 --> 00:41:23.130
Kelly Paxton: So.

00:41:23.310 --> 00:41:33.030
Kelly Paxton: The han factor is so incredibly important, and I will put links to you know LinkedIn and Twitter and your book and reach out.

00:41:33.540 --> 00:41:50.550
Kelly Paxton: To Martina because she does great stuff and truly I you're going to want a book get the book because, and if you have older parents are just older people you care about reading, this is really helpful it's really, really helpful, so thank you so much Martina.

00:41:50.940 --> 00:41:56.100
Martina Dove: No, thank you, I really enjoyed myself and sorry about a lightning round he wasn't so life thing.

What did you think? Another great episode with lots of insights and resources and binge watching suggestions! Martina was fantastic and so interesting. I love how she has taken the “softer” side, the human factor, and been able to transition into the private sector from academia. These softer skills are so important because they are human skills and humans are at the core of fraud. Thank you again for listening. Next week is a former special agent for the FBI. Such an interesting career path. 

Here is a most recent review on the podcast: Kelly’s podcast is such a great and informative experience. I love hearing her stories and those she interviews. Great tips are provided for those of us committed to fighting fraud. Thanks Kelly, keep up the good work.