Kelly Paxton: Oh, and that is so timely and we're going to talk about just the smallest and then finally best money spent personally or professionally or both.
Ellen Hunt: Oh, education, and anything that helps you learn or think differently any opportunity to be with people who have a different discipline or a different philosophy and any opportunity to learn, so I never regret a penny I've ever spent on any kind of educational opportunity.
Kelly Paxton: Okay, so we are related. Now I know for sure.
Kelly Paxton: And I will say I think you're only the third attorney I have had on and Great Women in Fraud and that is special because people know that you know I have, I have a very complicated relationship with the legal world.
Ellen Hunt: So yeah me too.
Ellen Hunt: Oh yeah well my elevator speech is that you know I have seen my role in every organization that I have served to be to help the people and those associated with the organization make the best ethical choices to help protect the reputation of the organization and help fulfill its mission and purpose.
Ellen Hunt: And I have found that to be a very fulfilling and purposeful career but that's what I think my job is even though I've had job descriptions that go on for pages and pages that's what I think it's really all about.
Ellen Hunt: yeah well I've just recently joined Christie Grant Hart at Spark compliance, which is just thrilling because I get the opportunity to help clients with their projects and their compliance programs and it's just a diverse group of folks who do all kinds of different businesses and have all kinds of different issues and it's just it's really been great it's really wonderful and so I'm enjoying it immensely.
Ellen Hunt: But also, it just fascinates me as to what motivates people and we haven't heard from Jesse so we don't know, but the assumption is he did it for the PR and you know, it just it's going to be very interesting is you know, will he work again and we're waiting sentences which doesn't happen until January, but you know, is he going to get community service I don't know just a fascinating fascinating case…
Ellen Hunt: To how awful I mean you know victimizing these families who are already been victimized by a horrible crime.
Ellen Hunt: And then you know she had a long run and that's another ongoing thing with all of this Kelly is Look how long these frauds go on before somebody catches them.
And with Katrina darling is one that this was not her first inning she was you know she made up the BAT before, so I you know this was like the third time so it's kind of amazing how people can evade getting caught for so long and kind of a very sophisticated crime here because she's getting the dis death certificates and filing the tax returns and all of that so she's she kind of I think she's going to get my vote for fraud of the year.
Ellen Hunt: I don't know I mean Rita seems to be doing all right, so I don't know if she's going to have another horse farm or what she's going to do, but she sure didn't serve her term…
Ellen Hunt: Maybe not but you know, I was thinking well, what are the what are some of the similarities and what are the some of the themes that run through that and so without talking about specifics, one of the things that I think every Organization has is a level of narcissism and hubris.
Ellen Hunt: My dear friend Scott Killings worth wrote an article called C is for Crucible where he particularly talks about some of the pressures in the C suite.
Ellen Hunt: For the fraud I just It amazes me, and you know, maybe that's Elizabeth Holmes as well, but I am amazed in my career, the number of people, I have seen, who have jeopardized six-figure jobs for thousands of dollars why often they're hiding the affair, but you know not always and you're just kind of go really, really. The payoff this back to your short term long term, you know cheating on that expense return, you know seemed worth it, I guess, in the short term, I don't know.
Ellen Hunt: It and it was you know, building a program is just the greatest opportunity there is I've had the chance to do that a couple of times in my career and i'd encourage anybody.
That when they have the chance to actually create the program instead of maintaining the program to do it, but bet here your fraud triangle, I want to suggest that maybe it's a square or there's a missing element and that's power.
Ellen Hunt: So I think first of all they're going to demand that and our educational institutions are going to change, just like our workplaces.
Ellen Hunt: But, but the thing that that reminds me of and I heard I've heard this in many of the different organizations I've worked at the board level and at the C suite level which is.
Well integrity is table stakes we don't have to tell people to be ethical they should know how to do it.
Ellen Hunt: If you have those skills it doesn't really matter where your degree is from...
Ellen Hunt: because everybody was a lawyer at that part and, frankly, I think the legal folks felt more comfortable having a legal person in the role.
Ellen Hunt: But you do not need to be a lawyer to do this, and one of the things that I think is just so phenomenal is you have programs, like the program on compliance and ethics at Fordham.
In 2022 I hope to meet Ellen in person in my favorite big city. Once again, I love her perspective on fraud and compliance. I loved her angle on Fraud in her hometown. She definitely keeps up on the fraudsters. I just ordered Wolf Point by Ian Smith. I hope you have a wonderful holiday season. Here’s to 2022. Next up on the podcast is the executive producer for FruitCake Fraud, Celia Aniskovich. We are one lucky crew to have her.